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dorro1971
75 Posts |
 Posted - September 07 2006 : 2:29:23 PM
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hi guys...no matter how hard i try i cannot stop my left arm from rotating just before impact!...even with the pinch grip my left arm turns over causing low ball flight...or even worse a hook or the club slapping the ball and bouncing off!!
if i stop my swing just before the ball, i can see my elbow is no longer on plane and the club is closed!
if i do manage to keep the club open, elbow on plane, wrist flat etc,
then just after impact, on the follow through it feels like my arm is trying to bend the wrong way..and my wrist really hurts too!
i know what is happening but just can't stop!!!
HELP ANYONE!??
ian
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mikey8
30 Posts |
 Posted - September 07 2006 : 7:42:50 PM
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Hi Ian,
How's your Symple Chipping? Joe and Mike recommend starting with the chipping. You may want to gradually work up to a full swing. I know that sounds very elementary, but it works. You will learn the swing in "chunks", instaed of a full agressive swing. I helped in the new dvd, demonstating chipping and pitching. I did that so much during the taping, when I went to a full swing, it was much better. I also noticed with my lower hand, that even though I still had the pinch I still had alot of grip pressure. I had to engrain in my head that the lower hand was simply along for the ride. There is very little gip pressure there. If that hand gets tight, I roll it over at impact, "every single time". I found this biggest cause of a poor shot. I hope this helps til the experts get to this... |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - September 08 2006 : 05:37:26 AM
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Hi Micky8
Sorry to be negative about the swing because I love it and I am really working at it to make it work, but I have the same problem as dorro1971 and I've watched the new dvd and original many times in slow and frame by frame motion, and if that is you in the programme you have the exact same problem, if you watch the bonus clips of you in slow motion and frame by frame your lead wrist is getting blocked badly on the follow through, at the point of impact the club head is ahead of your hands and you don't roll the wrist so the lead arm is getting to what appears trapped and is leading to what appears a painfull bending of your wrists. If you watch mike in slow motion in his backswing the club is parallel to the ground below or just below hip level with the arms at 8 o'clock by the time his arms get to 9 the club is almost vertical, I like you try to take club to the 9 0'clock position with the club and arms in line and then thumb cock so in the downswing we get back to this position look at mike he gets back to this position (9 o'clock) with the club still almost vertical and then releases the thumb cock so he hits the ball with his hands ahead of the club head and then its hard to make out in slow motion but he definitely looks like he is rolling his wrists quickly.
As I said before I love this swing and will make it work eventually but I mentioned before in another post there should be more time and help given to the follow through as I find more problems here than with any other part of the swing.
I'll be interested to hear what the rest of you think.
Mike and Joe, I still think this is the best swing out there and would full recommend it to anyone and as for your help on this forum, its second to none. Keep up the good work its appreciated.
Cheers
Als |
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shefield
65 Posts |
Posted - September 08 2006 : 07:16:17 AM
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ALS mentions a new DVD. Is this a reference to the Short Game DVD or something else?
weird peter |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - September 08 2006 : 08:09:10 AM
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Hi Shefield
Yes, I was refering to the new short game dvd.
Cheers
Als |
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azgolfer
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - September 08 2006 : 2:21:47 PM
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I did not write this, nor do I necessarily endorse what he has to say, but I found it on the internet so use it with caution and if it helps your understanding then it is a good post if not then ignore. From my other posts you know that I am struggeling with this swing. I intend to seriously focus on my trail elbow (there is another post in here by a forum member about Mike OLeary working with him and his trail elbow) and keeping it close to my hip and moving toward my navel. I will let you know the results or if not successful I won't! Kidding
"So many golfers claim temporary success with Symple Swing (SS) but later complain that something in the method causes them to hook. They can’t figure out why, so they abandon one of the simplest swings there is and jump to some other method. Simple logic will tell you that if you have hit shots well with the method, you are capable of continuing to do so as long as you perform the mechanics correctly.
I don’t agree with those that say that the rolling of the arms is “natural” and, therefore, you’re supposedly fighting against that rotation with SS. If you take the proper grip, point the lead elbow at the target, have a proper shoulder turn (on plane), use the trail arm correctly, and have the proper tempo, your arms and hands will have no need to rotate and no tendency to do so. You may have developed the "habit" of rotating the hands for the CG or other golf swings, but there's no natural tendency to do so if the gip changes.
There are about four basic reasons for hooking with SS: (1) Over-use of the trial hand that releases the club too soon before impact and closes the clubface. (Also, with respect to the trail hand, a trail hand that needs to be weakened somewhat from the strong grip because the golfer’s trail hand and wrist anatomy tends to rotate a little too much into impact); (2) failure to have the hands ahead at impact, which is associated with the early release; (3) casting or an over-the-top move of the arms that gets the club off plane or fails to let the club get in the “slot’; and (4) the position of the trail elbow. The last is very important and can be a major cause of hooks and pull-hooks. The trail elbow should point at the trail hip at set-up with the inside of the trail forearm facing up, the elbow should remain pointing down during the takeaway, should be close to the trial hip (no more than about 6” away) at the top of the BS and pointing mostly downward to the ground. On the downswing the inside of the trial forearm should remain facing up and the trail elbow should seek the naval.
These elbow and forearm positions permit a more rotational swing that keeps the club wide and on plane, as opposed to a more vertical swing that is often caused by a “flying” trail elbow position and a consequent over-the-top move and early release.
If you are hooking, it’s likely because one of the above has crept into your mechanics, or your tempo is too fast to permit the levers to release properly (TEMPO IS EVERYTHING WITH THIS SWING- rush your swing and you will hook). There are other indirect causes such as a poor shoulder turn that “dips” rather than turns, a stance that is too erect, a tendency to slide body and head in the DS, or failure to keep the head near the trial knee into impact. But the trail elbow is the biggest culprit.
SS will quickly show your faults but unfortunately is often blamed for causing them. Not so. If your mechanics are sound, the swing with its straight-line release, little or no hand and arm rotation, and on plane mechanics, is probably the most accurate method out there; powerful too.
As a reminder, don’t “hit” with the trail hand, use the trail forearm and a relatively passive hand. More is not better with this swing.(my bolding) It’s not a case of ‘hey, I hit good with this swing speed, so I’ll just crank it up, swing harder, and do even better.’ Use a tempo that lets you stay in balance and stay straight. Often with this swing, less is more. |
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clarkntn
57 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 07:21:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikey8
Hi Ian,
How's your Symple Chipping? Joe and Mike recommend starting with the chipping. You may want to gradually work up to a full swing. I know that sounds very elementary, but it works. You will learn the swing in "chunks", instaed of a full agressive swing. I helped in the new dvd, demonstating chipping and pitching. I did that so much during the taping, when I went to a full swing, it was much better. I also noticed with my lower hand, that even though I still had the pinch I still had alot of grip pressure. I had to engrain in my head that the lower hand was simply along for the ride. There is very little gip pressure there. If that hand gets tight, I roll it over at impact, "every single time". I found this biggest cause of a poor shot. I hope this helps til the experts get to this...
this is one problem i'm shocked i don't have....i had ALOT OF HANDS in my old swing!
i do rotate my hands before impact only when i need a hard draw, seems to work well with symple swing, in fact draws are esier. |
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shefield
65 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 10:24:13 AM
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azgolfer
Great post! I have developed a love/hate relationship with my golf swing now that I'm dedicated to SS. Before reading your post I had just come back for the driving range. I've gone from hitting the best golf shots of my life one month ago (with SS) to being lucky to hit the ball off of a tee (also with SS). I worked extensively on my grip and trying to make a shoulder turn. I discovered that one of my corrections to stop the "hook" was actually ruining the entire swing. I had been weakening my right (lower) hand by turning it more on top of the grip. This, in turn, changed the position of my trailing elbow. Instead of pointing at my trailing hip, it was pointing down and away from the target, resulting in a flying elbow that inhibited any attempted core body turn, especially with longer clubs (woods and driver). I then adjusted my right (lower) hand to a position where the palm is nearly facing the sky. This keeps my trailing elbow pointing to my trailing hip and prevents the elbow from flying too far away during the backswing. I'm able to turn better and don't feel a forced rotation of my arms.
weird peter |
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azgolfer
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 1:07:15 PM
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One more thing to post that I found from the same author via the internet. This information seems to fit ss but it is not directly related nor endorsed by ss with that said here ya go.
Here's something to consider in the meantime: one reason for the hooking is an overactive trail hand that uncocks and therefore releases too soon near impact. If you want to get an idea of what the release should be like, the hammer analogy may help. Take a hammer in the trail hand with the handle across the palm as you would normally hold a hammer. Start a nail at about crouch level in a verticle surface, like the corner of the garage where the lead shoulder is free. Start hitting the nail at first with short strokes and then with longer strokes of the arm. Notice that you don't roll the hammmer face open and you don't rotate the arm on its own axis. If you do, you will mi**** the nail most of the time. Notice also that if you are driving the nail properly, at impact your trial arm will still be bent some, and the hand will not have fully incocked at impact. The force applied is more from the trail forearm swinging than it is from the uncocking (suppinating) of the wrist or hand. This is the feeling and positioning you want to achieve when stroking with the golf club. It may be that you are trying to hit the ball with the hand rather that swinging through it with the arm and club, and therefore your hand action is closing the clubface some before impact. With the strong trail hand grip if the trial hand over activates before impact you will usually close the clubface too soon. Also if the grip is too tight or there is too much tension in the wrist and hand, then you may get some blocking of the shots rather than hooks. Loosen up and relax the muscles.
One last thing for now: at set-up make sure you bend the trail hand back a little toward the forearm and hold that angle into the BS. This will help you stay on plane with the shaft. (by the way, I pounded more nails than I care to remember using the above explanation in order to find the best wrist position and release. Do it wrong and the nail bends, do it right and you engrain the best wrist angle and release for you. Obsessive behavior? yes. But it works. |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 2:17:14 PM
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Hi dorro1971,
First let's define a few things and clear up some misconceptions about "rolling the wrist" through impact.
"Rolling the wrists through impact" (or the arms) is not a source of power. Rolling the wrists though impact requires great timing. If your timing is not perfect there's going to be trouble. I am saying that no swing (Symple Swing, conventional or others) should deliberately roll the wrists through impact. It's a recipe for trouble.
Look at Tiger Woods. He's no longer trying to roll his wrists through impact. Watch his swing and listen to the announcers. They describe his new swing with phrases like "He really held on to that shot". They are not use to seeing that type of shot yet.
In the "old days" no rolling your wrists was often called a block. When that's what many great golfers are doing more an more of today. That was the way Arnold Palmer swung. You're going to see less and less wrist rolling in the coming years.
Now let's talk about wrist rolling. What causes it. With Symple Swing the most common cause I see is the trailing wrist straightening before impact that causes wrists to roll. That's what we were trying to stop with the "Squeeze Test" in your manual. Look at all the touring pro's at impact. Seldom will you ever see a straight trailing wrist.
Go do the Squeeze Test with your grip now. I'll bet you find that the Squeeze Test shows a closed club face. And I'll bet you see your back wrist straighten out!!!
You've probably heard us say a too tight trail hand grip tends to close the club face through impact. The reason a tight grip closes the club face through impact is because it's the tight grip that straightens (and rolls) the wrist. If you had a tight grip and didn't straighten your wrist through impact you'd probably be okay (although it wouldn't be a great swing).
Why do some of us (me included) want to straighten our trailing wrist through impact. It's simple, we want to hit the ball hard and our muscles and our brains have been conditioned to try to "add in" every available muscle to make our swing as powerful as possible. With other swings (conventional and others) where the grip tended to leave the club face open through impact you could get away with this because the rolling over of the wrist closed the club face and actually compensated for other swing errors your were making (keeping the club face open). It was in effect an offsetting error.
Okay so how do we stop the wrists from rolling.
1. Do the Squeeze Test and test your grip. (Experiment with various trail hand grips hitting balls and doing the squeeze test)
2. Concentrate on not straightening your wrist rather than not rolling it. You may find that easier.
3. Experiment with moving the PowerThumb over towards the 1 o'clock position.
As an drill try hitting balls keeping your lead elbow slightly bent (it should be pointing toward the target). (Experiment bending the elbow different amounts) Bend it slightly at address so you can point it toward the target and keep it bent during the backswing and the downswing, and keep it bent right through impact. That should de-loft the club face slightly but it should prevent rolling the wrist. That's a good way to get use to not rolling the wrists.
Try what I suggested and let me know if that helps. I do have a couple of more things we can try.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
3. Experiment
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shefield
65 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 3:20:43 PM
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Joe,
One of the problems I have experienced when trying to learn from DVD's without personal instruction is that I don't really know what I'm doing. Let me explain. I bought both DVD's a while back and faithfully followed the progressive learning routine. As soon as I took my first full swing I knew that this was something special. My shots were straighter and further than ever before. I "knew" that every shot was going right to the target. Then, the roof caved in - hooks, weak hits, irons travelling twenty yards shorter than before, topped fairway woods, ugh! I was lost. I still am. I guess I never really had a full understanding of Symple Swing. I think I've probably exagerated some of the positions to a point of excess. I'm not really sure how wide the stance should be. I'm probably rocking too far and locking more than just my lower body (I think tension has crept upwards all the way to my brain). I still have questions on the grip regarding the heel pad. And I no not have a proper reference point of the things I did when I was swinging well. I definitely need someone to help me in a hands-on manner. I'm sure Joe or Mike could spend a short time with me and straighten everything out, but I've not been able to set up any instruction just yet. I hope this post doesn't seem to inchoherent because I'm sure many students are in similar positions. Part of the problem could be solved by a revised full-swing DVD incorporating some of this forum's suggestions, but I really believe nothing can replace hands-on instruction. I am not giving up and will eventually make my pilgrimage to Florida. I know this is that Symple Swing is golf's Holy Grail.
weird peter |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 3:40:36 PM
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Hi shefield,
Before you make a pilgrimage consider some video. Obviously some extra motion has gotten into your swing. We should be able to identify the problem by looking at a video clip of your swing.
Video your swing (in any format) and get it to us. We'd be happy to review it. Video a couple of swings from behind the ball (shooting towards the target) and a couple of swings face on to the golfer (from the other side of the ball head-on to you). You can use a digital still camera (most of them do video clips) or a video camera.
I think you'll find that could be a huge help.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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shefield
65 Posts |
Posted - September 09 2006 : 8:09:25 PM
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Joe, Thanks for the offer. I'll try to get some video to you this week, although I stll want to see you or Mike in person real soon.
weird peter |
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clarkntn
57 Posts |
Posted - September 10 2006 : 12:02:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by shefield
Joe, Thanks for the offer. I'll try to get some video to you this week, although I stll want to see you or Mike in person real soon.
weird peter
not to bugger u up but just go back to basic in the SS.....HIT YOUR DRIVER IN SUPER SLOOOOOOW MOTION!
TRY TO HIT 10 BALLS 50YRDS STRAIGTH!
THEN TRY 100 YRDS. 150...200
this WILL grove your swing properly...it has truely made my swing symple!
i have hit my 100 yrd driver drill sooo straight that i actually hit my other balls on the range.
sometime i don't have time before a round to do this drill and it shows! but when i do hit about 40 balls in slow mo i RARELY MISS A FAIRWAY in the round after...its that good! |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - September 11 2006 : 1:23:11 PM
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Hi clarkntn,
That's a great drill. It really helps to focus your both on path and square face.
Now if I could just get my club to build a practice range! (The course is great but not having a range is a downer).
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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jdmike
14 Posts |
Posted - September 11 2006 : 5:15:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by simpleswing
Hi clarkntn,
That's a great drill. It really helps to focus your both on path and square face.
Now if I could just get my club to build a practice range! (The course is great but not having a range is a downer).
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
Joe, it's interesting that you mention the situation about the lack of a driving range at your club. For folks who don't have a range nearby, or for someone who would rather practice drills like that mentioned at home, I wonder how helpful a simulator like this would be:
www.dancindogg.com .
Just wanted to see what you thought about using such devices in place of the real driving range experience.
Mike H.
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - September 11 2006 : 6:03:55 PM
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Hi jdmike,
I haven't used the dancindogg one but anything that gives you feedback about face angle and path will be very helpful.
Another similar but somewhat more expensive product is the P3Pro. http://www.p3proswing.com/
Using a simulator like these can be a real eye-opener.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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dorro1971
75 Posts |
Posted - September 29 2006 : 2:23:28 PM
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hi all,
sorry for the delay and thankyou to everyone who posted help messages!
i think things are getting better for me, my drives are 250 yards plus and only a few yards to one side or the other
my iron shots still suffer from wrist roll a little,i have found that by trailing the left arm behind the shoulder a little and keepind a little wrist cock until the moment of impact it goes some way to stopping my problems
thanks all
dorro |
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damm wrists!!!
