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SacGolf
12 Posts |
 Posted - July 07 2006 : 11:48:25 AM
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Hi, Thought I would revisit this issue and perhaps there are others like me and perhaps one reason why it is hard for me to watch a video and repeat the action. Not only will your answer help me, it might help others to learn from the videos. My mind thinks one thing and my body does another. One factor that seems to ring true, and I'll use pitching/chipping as an example, is the shoulder vs. arm take away. I am almost always more successful if the shoulder controls the swing. It is a shorter swing. When my hands/arms take the club away, and in part due to an stiff/inflexible front shoulder, my wrist on my lead hand bends (not breaks). When it comes back down, usually it bends back and then some and it ground the ball. Also, my body doesn't seem to flow back forth with arms in control. Now, here's the critical element. I can't always tell what's in control of the swing. Both looks the same to me, but one is where the shoulders are being pulled and one is where the shoulders are pushing. In both cases, shoudlers are moving back. What's worse, is that I can't always feel a difference and that's why when I watch a video, I think I'm doing the right thing, but I'm not. This has to be an issue with others and maybe you have thought about it and teach it in your lessons. Worse, is that I will go into a slump that could last months and this seems to be at the root, but I'm unable to figure it out. The only visual cue so far that I've come up with is that when my shoulders push the club back, it comes off of the ground a little quicker and higher. Hands tend to get the club going back and very low along the ground and sometimes not around and back in a good path.
Any help would be greatly appreciated with respect to drills, cues, etc.
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AlanG
12 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 12:27:57 PM
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| I totally appreciate where you're coming from, SacGolf. Translating how various positions and moves look in an effective golf swing to a repeatable feel is indeed not always an easy thing. This issue with the shoulder turn has been dealt with very well on another post in the Forum. Kind of rehashing what was said there, you might try, instead of thinking about "shoulders vs. arms", the thought of turning the right shoulder directly behind you, and letting this move the whole shoulders/arms unit. Keep the head steady over the back knee, and let the right shoulder go back on a plane perpendicular to the spine axis. This might help. |
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cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 1:46:06 PM
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I'm a beginning golfer, and SS has helped me go from scores in the 120s to the 80s. I have osteroarthritis in my joints, particularly my knees, back, hips, and shoulders. Moreover; because of my health, I have a plate in my neck, due to ruptured disks; and I have to wear a brace on my front leg (left leg) because I have a drop foot.
SS WORKS! Just trust it and swing. Granted, you have to learn which clubs to use on different shots, but this swing works. (I was, and still am (at times), just as frustrated as you are; just keep practicing and it will come together.) |
Edited by - cb44 on July 08 2006 11:17:41 AM |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 2:56:20 PM
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Hi SacGolf,
We fully realize learning a new swing involves unlearning bad habits and we know how hard that is. We also realize it's tough learning a swing just by watching a video so that's why we offer free support by forum, e-mail and phone. We'd also be happy to review a video of your swing.
I'd suggest trying the the one armed core power drills. http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~337.asp I just added some new material that gives some better directions on how to do the drill at the end of the article. You don't have to hit balls with that drill just swinging the club that way can be very beneficial. Doing the one arm drills helps you "feel" what the contribution of each side feels like and then you can put it together into one swing where both sides do their part.
Please feel free to call me at 203-798-8489 and I'd be happy to give you some more specific suggestions.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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SacGolf
12 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 3:29:41 PM
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From SacGolf -
Outstanding - This is a true and wonderful golf rags to riches story. I'm wondering what kinds of things you faced when you scored 120s and what changes have taken place to get to the 80s....
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quote:
Originally posted by cb44
I'm a beginning golfer, and SS has helped me go from scores in the 120s to the 80s. I have osteroarthritis in my joints, particularly my knees, back, hips, and shoulders. Moreover; because of my health, I have a plate in my neck, due to ruptured disks; and I have to wear a brace on my front leg (left leg) because I have a drop foot.
SS WORKS! Just trust it and swing. Granted, you have to learn which clubs to use on different shots, but this swing works. (I was, and still am (at times), just as frustrated as you are; just keep practicing and it will come together.)
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Edited by - SacGolf on July 07 2006 3:38:11 PM |
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cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 5:21:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SacGolf
From SacGolf -
Outstanding - This is a true and wonderful golf rags to riches story. I'm wondering what kinds of things you faced when you scored 120s and what changes have taken place to get to the 80s....
===========================
quote:
Originally posted by cb44
I'm a beginning golfer, and SS has helped me go from scores in the 120s to the 80s. I have osteroarthritis in my joints, particularly my knees, back, hips, and shoulders. Moreover; because of my health, I have a plate in my neck, due to ruptured disks; and I have to wear a brace on my front leg (left leg) because I have a drop foot.
SS WORKS! Just trust it and swing. Granted, you have to learn which clubs to use on different shots, but this swing works. (I was, and still am (at times), just as frustrated as you are; just keep practicing and it will come together.)
I had a lot of frustration during the 120s and now I have a lot of trepidation, because I want to repeat the 80s and then some. As far as changes go, I didn't do anything differently than I do normally when trying to improve in an endeavor, I work at it.
I practice almost every day (at least 4 - 5 times/week for 1-2 hr per session). Approximately 60
% of that time is spent on the short game (i.e., shots in the 5 foot to 70 yd range), 20% on putting, and 20% on long shots (drives, etc). More importantly, I have a family that is understanding and doesn't mind that I spend that time practicing/playing golf.
I don't know if I'll score this well again. All I know is that I will keep doing as I am doing and that I will do well because I know I am doing my best. |
Edited by - cb44 on July 07 2006 8:01:13 PM |
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Chazman
30 Posts |
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SacGolf
12 Posts |
Posted - July 12 2006 : 11:47:06 AM
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| Opposing Force Grip - has anyone tried it. Intuitively, and I will go out and try it, adding force in opposite direction, might pull hands apart, for those of who have stiffness where hands separate at top of swing. But, I certainly will have to give it a try. Than.s |
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oneputt
77 Posts |
Posted - July 12 2006 : 1:02:22 PM
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| My advice on the shoulder swing is, swing more like a ferris wheel and less like a merry-go-round. In other words, make your BS a 90 deg. turn of the shoulders and and keep your hands in front of your ankles at the end of the BS and DS. If you swing on a flatter plane, more like a merry-go-round, your hands end up behind your body on the DS and it will be impossible to swing down the line, making good contact with the ball. With this flatter swing plane on the DS it is more likely that you will pull the ball left. If you swing more like a ferris wheel, your hands on the BS will end up about even with your right ear and be over your right toes, and the left shoulder would have rotated 90 deg. to the right. At the end of your DS, your hands will be even with your left ear and your hands will be over your left toes and your left shoulder will have rotated 90 deg. or more to the left. You should have the feeling of swinging through the ball skyward as opposed to swinging around your body to the left. |
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cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 12 2006 : 1:47:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by oneputt
My advice on the shoulder swing is, swing more like a ferris wheel and less like a merry-go-round. In other words, make your BS a 90 deg. turn of the shoulders and and keep your hands in front of your ankles at the end of the BS and DS. If you swing on a flatter plane, more like a merry-go-round, your hands end up behind your body on the DS and it will be impossible to swing down the line, making good contact with the ball. With this flatter swing plane on the DS it is more likely that you will pull the ball left. If you swing more like a ferris wheel, your hands on the BS will end up about even with your right ear and be over your right toes, and the left shoulder would have rotated 90 deg. to the right. At the end of your DS, your hands will be even with your left ear and your hands will be over your left toes and your left shoulder will have rotated 90 deg. or more to the left. You should have the feeling of swinging through the ball skyward as opposed to swinging around your body to the left.
I like this, a lot, especially your last sentence. That sentence puts into words the feeling I get when I swing well. Thank you. |
Edited by - cb44 on July 12 2006 1:49:54 PM |
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jdmike
14 Posts |
Posted - July 14 2006 : 06:20:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by oneputt
My advice on the shoulder swing is, swing more like a ferris wheel and less like a merry-go-round. In other words, make your BS a 90 deg. turn of the shoulders and and keep your hands in front of your ankles at the end of the BS and DS. If you swing on a flatter plane, more like a merry-go-round, your hands end up behind your body on the DS and it will be impossible to swing down the line, making good contact with the ball. With this flatter swing plane on the DS it is more likely that you will pull the ball left. If you swing more like a ferris wheel, your hands on the BS will end up about even with your right ear and be over your right toes, and the left shoulder would have rotated 90 deg. to the right. At the end of your DS, your hands will be even with your left ear and your hands will be over your left toes and your left shoulder will have rotated 90 deg. or more to the left. You should have the feeling of swinging through the ball skyward as opposed to swinging around your body to the left.
As I try to picture swinging with a ferris wheel action, this question naturally pops up: woudn't there be a significant chance that the swing plane would be too steep?
Regards,
Mike H
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Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 14 2006 : 08:10:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jdmike
quote:
Originally posted by oneputt
My advice on the shoulder swing is, swing more like a ferris wheel and less like a merry-go-round. In other words, make your BS a 90 deg. turn of the shoulders and and keep your hands in front of your ankles at the end of the BS and DS. If you swing on a flatter plane, more like a merry-go-round, your hands end up behind your body on the DS and it will be impossible to swing down the line, making good contact with the ball. With this flatter swing plane on the DS it is more likely that you will pull the ball left. If you swing more like a ferris wheel, your hands on the BS will end up about even with your right ear and be over your right toes, and the left shoulder would have rotated 90 deg. to the right. At the end of your DS, your hands will be even with your left ear and your hands will be over your left toes and your left shoulder will have rotated 90 deg. or more to the left. You should have the feeling of swinging through the ball skyward as opposed to swinging around your body to the left.
As I try to picture swinging with a ferris wheel action, this question naturally pops up: woudn't there be a significant chance that the swing plane would be too steep?
Regards,
Mike H
The plane could be too steep if one takes the ferris wheel anology too literally. Remember, we are swinging on an inclined plane. This means that the ferris wheel is tilted. You would not want any child of yours riding on THIS ferris wheel.
Boris
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jdmike
14 Posts |
Posted - July 14 2006 : 11:57:37 AM
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[/quote]
As I try to picture swinging with a ferris wheel action, this question naturally pops up: woudn't there be a significant chance that the swing plane would be too steep?
Regards,
Mike H
[/quote]
This means that the ferris wheel is tilted. You would not want any child of yours riding on THIS ferris wheel.
Boris
[/quote]
Ahem! 
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Chris
8 Posts |
Posted - July 14 2006 : 5:57:26 PM
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| I have been having trouble with feeling the shoulders. I don't know if I am doing an arm or shoulder swing. I imagine it is an arm swing because I am not hitting long and also still manage to slice. Any suggestions ? |
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mikeoleary
535 Posts |
Posted - July 14 2006 : 9:54:23 PM
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Great thread
answer to Chris
1- grip club with power thumb grip now raise arms like you are hitting a ball on a 3 or 4 foot high tee - with arms extended begin backswing by only turning upper body/ getting back to target/ getting top button on shirt to point away from target/by keeping hands the same in front of chest extended - this is a upper body coil
2- assume address position - posture and grip - now slide or work the hands down the grip/ down the shaft until butt of grip is right in middle of chest. Keep the club face aimed at ball - now begin take away but do not allow the butt of grip to leave chest/sternum. The only way to do this is by chest/upper body/backswing done by shoulders turning - remember backswing is 80% shoulder turn and arms getting up to parallel to target line with left thumb pointing to sky with flat left wrist.
Getting to top of backswing once you 'get it' is a simple turn and set thumb hinge with flat wrist.
good luck
call me if you need any thing else
Mike O |
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SacGolf
12 Posts |
Posted - July 17 2006 : 11:56:33 AM
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Question for Mike,
#1, Pretty much like T-ball as a kid, or even baseball. I start out, with a nice "V" and connection with the shoulders. But, probably due to lack of flexibility, it feels like I lose the connection with the back shoulder as the back arms starts to bend and pull away from my back side. And, then the "V" is distorted. |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - July 17 2006 : 6:23:51 PM
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Hi SacGolf,
Try letting the back arm bend BUT DON'T LET IT PULL AWAY FROM YOUR SIDE. Keep your back elbow pointed downward during the backswing (and the downswing). (Note: I'm saying downward not straight down.)
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - July 18 2006 : 11:42:27 AM
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Hi joe
What is wrong with it being too straight down and what problems does this create?
Cheers
Als |
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SacGolf
12 Posts |
Posted - July 18 2006 : 11:47:13 AM
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Message for Joe:
In your experience of being a teacher, is there a #1 or #2 cause for the back arm/elbow separating from the side? I'm assuming that for me, my back arm starts pulling the club back as the front shoulder turn is very limited. In otherwords, front shoulder stops working very much. Any ideas, drills? Sort of the flying elbow, which I also have in my baseball swing, but that is 100% controllable. |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - July 18 2006 : 1:42:06 PM
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First ALS,
For some folks (skinny folks) there is nothing wrong. The way I'm built I couldn't get my elbow to point straight down no matter what I do. I was just trying to say that you should make sure your trail elbow points generally downward but don't obsess about exactly where it points.
In my experience the number one cause for moving the back elbow away from the body is the hands lifting the club during the backswing. The shoulders (actually chest and shoulders) should take the club back.
Practice taking the club back with just your left hand and arm and see if your backswing changes. You can put the heel of your trail hand on your thumb of your lead hand but don't actually take a grip. When you don't actually grip with your trail hand you won't be able to lift with that hand.
Let me know if that helps.
Remember we'd be happy to review a video of your swing. You can send smaller video clips (under 5 megs) to us by e-mail. For larger files just use the free service at www.Pando.com I've had golfers send me very large files that way. If you prefer you could send a VHS or mini-DV tape to Simple Golf LLC 26 Maplewood Drive Danbury, CT 06811-4211
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - July 18 2006 : 2:02:27 PM
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Hi Joe
That was an amazing quick reply, thanks for the answer.
I've been really struggling with the swing up to a few days ago and I found that pointing my back elbow down and really keeping it in close to my side I could hit the ball a lot better and more consistantly and yes I am relatively skinny. So can I continue with keeping the elbow close to my side in both the b/s and the d/s even though my back elbow is a lot lower than the lead elbow at the top of my backswing or am I asking for trouble somewhere else?
Cheers
Als |
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Topic |
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Using Shoulders- Seems Simple, Not for Me
