| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Boris
202 Posts |
 Posted - July 05 2006 : 6:49:45 PM
|
In starting the downswing, I see most struggling golfers doing one of two things:
1. Assuming the clubhead needs to travel in a straight line to hit the ball straignt, the golfer tries to establish a "flat zone" and hit behind the ball and then continue the clubhead forward in a straight fashion.
2. The golfer has read or heard that the swing path is an inclined plane and he needs to swing in to out. So, he steers his hands and arms down an inside path.
Neither of these work, and if you stubbornly think they do, you will always struggle.
Here is a good way to generate the proper swing path. I am not saying it is the only way, but I have found this to have great success in both the short and long term..
When you start your downswing, the lead shoulder plays a very important role in defining the downswing swingpath. It seems logical to drive your lead shoulder open and then down a line paralell to the target line. And that is what many golfers do. They immediately open up their shoulders and drive their lead shoulder and often lead hip laterally, thinking the club will track in a straight line and make the ball go straight. This does not happen. What happens is that your trail arm and shoulder immediately come over the plane. You are over the top. The brain will do whatever it can to recover, sometimes you will indeed hit a great shot, it is just luck, that is all it is!!!
Now, what I like is for the arms to drop just a bit before the shoulders start turning on the downswing, this is a free fall, just relax and gravity will make it happen. Now instead of driving your lead shoulder and hip open and then with the sensation of straight down the line lateral motion, I want you to instead FEEL a cross-lateral motion. Righties will drive their lead shoulders to right field, lefties will drive their lead shoulders to left field. The shoulders will eventually come around. And this must be done with no manipulation of the club, hold it in your hands and it just goes for the ride. The clubhead will on it's own will go into the slot and apporach the ball inside to out and then return to the inside. You may feel like you are going to push the ball off the planet, you will not. You will push the ball if you hold on with a death grip that the clubface cannot square. Or your arms are so stiff that they don't come back to the inside after impact. The key is 100% trust, 95% won't cut it, as you will twitch some muscle trying to help things along.
My recommendation here will help prevent spin-out. Spin-out will give you an over the top move and cause your golf shots to be weak and feel more like a glancing, than solid strike. And you will feel like you are working awfully hard, and not getting proportionate results.
Hope this helps.
Boris
|
|
|
AlanG
12 Posts |
Posted - July 06 2006 : 09:43:43 AM
|
Boris -
I totally agree with your downswing assessment. TOTAL trust is indeed the key, especially with the "feel" of swinging out toward right field (for righthanders). Sometimes associated with this (correct) downswing path is fear of the (I hesitate to even use the word), shank. Ironically, the shank, I believe, is much more likely to occur with the over the top move. |
 |
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 06 2006 : 10:54:21 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by AlanG
Boris -
I totally agree with your downswing assessment. TOTAL trust is indeed the key, especially with the "feel" of swinging out toward right field (for righthanders). Sometimes associated with this (correct) downswing path is fear of the (I hesitate to even use the word), shank. Ironically, the shank, I believe, is much more likely to occur with the over the top move.
Hi Alan,
I am glad we agree. When one develops TOTAL trust, the golfer will begin to make some real steps forward.
Think about it for a minute. If I hammer a nail, or chop wood with an ax, karate chop a board, or throw a football, do you think about it. Do you do anything DURING the motion to help things along. No, you commit to the motion and just do it. We need to swing the golf club without tension and with oblivion. And we should never worry about the outcome. Worrying about the outcome will introduce tension. The best in the world hit bad shots. So we need to accept that we will indeed hit many bad shots. And accepting this, and the challenge that bad shots present, will lead to more GOOD shots.
Boris |
|
|
|
bkroon
223 Posts |
 Posted - July 06 2006 : 3:14:31 PM
|
Thanks Boris, you just described my swing motion, i.e. spin-out and the result......over the top. The ball is pulled, (in my case) left and when combined with closed face / "hooded" results in a real "QUACKER" or Duck Hook !!
As I think about my swing, I can see the left shoulder turning and the hips sliding, just as you describe it......usually in an effort to gain power/distance.
I'm going to try the "drive the ball to right field" approach, It's just got to help.
Also, I have to fight "cupping" the lead hand wrist. Thinking of buying the glove Joe mentioned in one of his earlier posts. Help keep my wrist straight, at least until I can break the old, "cupping" habit and learn the new "flat wrist" habit.
Really enjoy reading all the posts. My regret is we can't all get together, swap ideas, and play a few rounds of golf.
Rob in Sunny Phoenix ( where green fees are dropping with each passing week ) |
|
|
|
cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 06 2006 : 4:41:21 PM
|
| My DS feels like my elbows are driving down, across, and around my body. I don't know if that is similar to what you are describing, Boris, but if my address, grip, etc. are correct, I have solid and accurate contact w/good distance. |
|
|
|
jdmike
14 Posts |
|
|
mikeoleary
535 Posts |
Posted - July 06 2006 : 10:22:22 PM
|
To all
great post Boris - the key is explaining fundamentals differently so more SS's get it right. Thanks for the insight again.
Trusting SS is the final hurdle once you know the correct method putting into use with no tension is the secret to becoming a good player who can now really enjoy the game, employing strategy, competing within yourself to maintain relaxed focus etc instead of fighting your swing and trying to correct it on the course.
Bk- let us know how the 'drive the ball to rightfield' works - also the cupping has to be erased - do a 1000 swings in your spare time with no club just correct flat lead wrist at address ( I do it in the house/ on the phone ) thumb pointing at imaginary ball - turn in backswing and with arm and now in the 9 o'clock position and thumb pointing at 9 also then hinge at base of thumb- pointing thumb to sky/ceiling keeping wrist flat ..
Memorize this position do it over and over - make it a habit - getting to this position at the top of bs with wrist flat but hinging at the thumb for full swing. It works.
Good luck - the glove is a great idea - it will definitely help
Thanks to all for quality insight and great thead
Keep it up
Mike O |
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 07 2006 : 2:14:17 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jdmike
Boris, while reading this article today, something in my head went...Ding! ( www.golfillustrated.com/reports/rocketscience.pdf )
It's what you kept saying to me.
Thanks much,
MikeH
Mike,
Thanks for sharing. Great article.
Boris |
|
|
|
fdb2
3 Posts |
Posted - July 08 2006 : 9:54:22 PM
|
| What if you just intend to hit the ball at the inside of center back quadrant? |
|
|
|
JoeShmoe
8 Posts |
Posted - July 19 2006 : 08:47:20 AM
|
I agree that the lateral move is bad, but what about trying to push your hips on that 'right field' line? I find if I make that motion, the club drops right behind me and I hit the ball great?
I practice this is by putting a club on myhips and at the top of the backswing I see it points out to the right. When I then start my downswing I bump the hips out to first base so the club stays pointing to first base. I used to bump so the shaft pointed to second or even third base which was bad for me .. a sure sign of OTT
|
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 19 2006 : 1:13:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JoeShmoe
I agree that the lateral move is bad, but what about trying to push your hips on that 'right field' line? I find if I make that motion, the club drops right behind me and I hit the ball great?
I practice this is by putting a club on myhips and at the top of the backswing I see it points out to the right. When I then start my downswing I bump the hips out to first base so the club stays pointing to first base. I used to bump so the shaft pointed to second or even third base which was bad for me .. a sure sign of OTT
You got it!!!
Another thing you can do is take a short iron and put one end touching your trail heal and the other end touching your lead toe. Then one the downswing, bunp your hips diagnally in the direction of your shaft, from trail heal to lead toe. I have seen this exercise work wonders within a few swings for those plagued by spin out and OTT.
Boris |
Edited by - Boris on July 19 2006 1:14:25 PM |
|
|
|
cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 19 2006 : 4:01:02 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boris
quote:
Originally posted by JoeShmoe
I agree that the lateral move is bad, but what about trying to push your hips on that 'right field' line? I find if I make that motion, the club drops right behind me and I hit the ball great?
I practice this is by putting a club on myhips and at the top of the backswing I see it points out to the right. When I then start my downswing I bump the hips out to first base so the club stays pointing to first base. I used to bump so the shaft pointed to second or even third base which was bad for me .. a sure sign of OTT
You got it!!!
Another thing you can do is take a short iron and put one end touching your trail heal and the other end touching your lead toe. Then one the downswing, bunp your hips diagnally in the direction of your shaft, from trail heal to lead toe. I have seen this exercise work wonders within a few swings for those plagued by spin out and OTT.
Boris
I can visualize the club orientations mentioned above, as well as the "swing to right field" analogy posted earlier, but what is "bump the hips?" |
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 19 2006 : 4:20:18 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by cb44
quote:
Originally posted by Boris
quote:
Originally posted by JoeShmoe
I agree that the lateral move is bad, but what about trying to push your hips on that 'right field' line? I find if I make that motion, the club drops right behind me and I hit the ball great?
I practice this is by putting a club on myhips and at the top of the backswing I see it points out to the right. When I then start my downswing I bump the hips out to first base so the club stays pointing to first base. I used to bump so the shaft pointed to second or even third base which was bad for me .. a sure sign of OTT
You got it!!!
Another thing you can do is take a short iron and put one end touching your trail heal and the other end touching your lead toe. Then one the downswing, bunp your hips diagnally in the direction of your shaft, from trail heal to lead toe. I have seen this exercise work wonders within a few swings for those plagued by spin out and OTT.
Boris
I can visualize the club orientations mentioned above, as well as the "swing to right field" analogy posted earlier, but what is "bump the hips?"
At some point in the downswing you need to get the hips cleared so you can finish tall and proud, facing the target. Some folks clear the hips with a lateral motion, that causes spinout. The clubhead gets thrown over the plane and approaches the ball at a steep angle. A better motion is cross lateral. It keeps the club on plane a whole lot longer.
Frankly, I don't even think about this. You get your swing grooved to the point where it just happens. But for those with major OTT or spin out issues, this is something they need to think about and work on. And then forget about!
boris |
Edited by - Boris on July 19 2006 4:21:13 PM |
|
|
|
cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 19 2006 : 5:31:23 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Boris
In starting the downswing, I see most struggling golfers doing one of two things:
1. Assuming the clubhead needs to travel in a straight line to hit the ball straignt, the golfer tries to establish a "flat zone" and hit behind the ball and then continue the clubhead forward in a straight fashion.
2. The golfer has read or heard that the swing path is an inclined plane and he needs to swing in to out. So, he steers his hands and arms down an inside path.
Neither of these work, and if you stubbornly think they do, you will always struggle.
Here is a good way to generate the proper swing path. I am not saying it is the only way, but I have found this to have great success in both the short and long term..
When you start your downswing, the lead shoulder plays a very important role in defining the downswing swingpath. It seems logical to drive your lead shoulder open and then down a line paralell to the target line. And that is what many golfers do. They immediately open up their shoulders and drive their lead shoulder and often lead hip laterally, thinking the club will track in a straight line and make the ball go straight. This does not happen. What happens is that your trail arm and shoulder immediately come over the plane. You are over the top. The brain will do whatever it can to recover, sometimes you will indeed hit a great shot, it is just luck, that is all it is!!!
Now, what I like is for the arms to drop just a bit before the shoulders start turning on the downswing, this is a free fall, just relax and gravity will make it happen. Now instead of driving your lead shoulder and hip open and then with the sensation of straight down the line lateral motion, I want you to instead FEEL a cross-lateral motion. Righties will drive their lead shoulders to right field, lefties will drive their lead shoulders to left field. The shoulders will eventually come around. And this must be done with no manipulation of the club, hold it in your hands and it just goes for the ride. The clubhead will on it's own will go into the slot and apporach the ball inside to out and then return to the inside. You may feel like you are going to push the ball off the planet, you will not. You will push the ball if you hold on with a death grip that the clubface cannot square. Or your arms are so stiff that they don't come back to the inside after impact. The key is 100% trust, 95% won't cut it, as you will twitch some muscle trying to help things along.
My recommendation here will help prevent spin-out. Spin-out will give you an over the top move and cause your golf shots to be weak and feel more like a glancing, than solid strike. And you will feel like you are working awfully hard, and not getting proportionate results.
Hope this helps.
Boris
I was able to swing some today for the first time in a week, and I tried the swing to right field feeling. I used the 7i, 5i, 3hybrid, and driver, five swings w/each. I felt like I used very little energy, yet my distances w/each iron were 5-10 yd more than normal and, w/the driver, 20 yd greater than usual. I was able to maintain my tilt and head over my back knee easier than ever before. The only thing is that for about 3/5 of those swings, the ball traveled on a line divergent to the target line. It wasn't a slice/fade, it was straight, just divergent. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. |
Edited by - cb44 on July 19 2006 5:42:56 PM |
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 12:05:57 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by cb44
quote:
Originally posted by Boris
In starting the downswing, I see most struggling golfers doing one of two things:
1. Assuming the clubhead needs to travel in a straight line to hit the ball straignt, the golfer tries to establish a "flat zone" and hit behind the ball and then continue the clubhead forward in a straight fashion.
2. The golfer has read or heard that the swing path is an inclined plane and he needs to swing in to out. So, he steers his hands and arms down an inside path.
Neither of these work, and if you stubbornly think they do, you will always struggle.
Here is a good way to generate the proper swing path. I am not saying it is the only way, but I have found this to have great success in both the short and long term..
When you start your downswing, the lead shoulder plays a very important role in defining the downswing swingpath. It seems logical to drive your lead shoulder open and then down a line paralell to the target line. And that is what many golfers do. They immediately open up their shoulders and drive their lead shoulder and often lead hip laterally, thinking the club will track in a straight line and make the ball go straight. This does not happen. What happens is that your trail arm and shoulder immediately come over the plane. You are over the top. The brain will do whatever it can to recover, sometimes you will indeed hit a great shot, it is just luck, that is all it is!!!
Now, what I like is for the arms to drop just a bit before the shoulders start turning on the downswing, this is a free fall, just relax and gravity will make it happen. Now instead of driving your lead shoulder and hip open and then with the sensation of straight down the line lateral motion, I want you to instead FEEL a cross-lateral motion. Righties will drive their lead shoulders to right field, lefties will drive their lead shoulders to left field. The shoulders will eventually come around. And this must be done with no manipulation of the club, hold it in your hands and it just goes for the ride. The clubhead will on it's own will go into the slot and apporach the ball inside to out and then return to the inside. You may feel like you are going to push the ball off the planet, you will not. You will push the ball if you hold on with a death grip that the clubface cannot square. Or your arms are so stiff that they don't come back to the inside after impact. The key is 100% trust, 95% won't cut it, as you will twitch some muscle trying to help things along.
My recommendation here will help prevent spin-out. Spin-out will give you an over the top move and cause your golf shots to be weak and feel more like a glancing, than solid strike. And you will feel like you are working awfully hard, and not getting proportionate results.
Hope this helps.
Boris
I was able to swing some today for the first time in a week, and I tried the swing to right field feeling. I used the 7i, 5i, 3hybrid, and driver, five swings w/each. I felt like I used very little energy, yet my distances w/each iron were 5-10 yd more than normal and, w/the driver, 20 yd greater than usual. I was able to maintain my tilt and head over my back knee easier than ever before. The only thing is that for about 3/5 of those swings, the ball traveled on a line divergent to the target line. It wasn't a slice/fade, it was straight, just divergent. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
Just a shot in the dark, but make sure you keep on turning long after the ball is gone. This keeps the club moving on an arc. If you stop the turn prematurely, the clubface may stay open a tad, causing a slight push.
Glad to hear about your success. Keep up the good work.
Boris |
|
|
|
JoeShmoe
8 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 04:37:03 AM
|
quote:
I was able to swing some today for the first time in a week, and I tried the swing to right field feeling. I used the 7i, 5i, 3hybrid, and driver, five swings w/each. I felt like I used very little energy, yet my distances w/each iron were 5-10 yd more than normal and, w/the driver, 20 yd greater than usual. I was able to maintain my tilt and head over my back knee easier than ever before. The only thing is that for about 3/5 of those swings, the ball traveled on a line divergent to the target line. It wasn't a slice/fade, it was straight, just divergent. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
This happened to me too when I first made this change. Youre actually pushing the ball a bit. But thats good as your now in to out. What you now need to be is in to in so as you come into impact try and really whip through and collect the ball, with a slightly more agressive release. I find if I try and roll my forearms through impact (just after the bump to right field) I can draw the ball. Still working on this but its all coming good |
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 10:16:47 AM
|
Hi Guys,
Great discussion.
Learning to control your swing path is key to learning a good golf swing. The proper swing path and keeping the club face square through impact are the two key elements of a good golf swing.
Symple Swing automatically makes keeping the club face square through impact much easier with the PowerThumb grip. That mean that keeping the swing "on-plane" should be the big focus.
Sometimes I have my students picture themselves standing in a bit white circular swing trainer because that helps them visualize actual the "swing plane."
(See http://www.simplegolf.com/images/groovetube.gif )
Cb44. I think what you are doing would be like aiming the swing plane to the right of the target. Picture yourself standing in the swing trainer with it aimed to the right of the target and that's the line your downswing is following. I find sometimes students get too much weight to the back heel and they drop their back shoulders straight down which aims their shoulders to the right (for right handed golfers) during the downswing. Your back shoulder actually should swing down on a plane parallel too but lower than the swing plane.
Boris's tips are great and will really help most folks better understand and most importantly better control their swing plane. I believe what they actually do quite nicely is help you control the position of your shoulders coming in to impact. Remember "Your swing is going to follow your shoulders!!!". That means if at impact your shoulder are pointing the the right your swing (and the ball) are going to go to the right. The same goes for shoulders that are pointing to the left at impact. The swing will follow the shoulders to the left likely causing a putt.
Quite often many of the problems with shoulders (and with swing path) are caused by incorrect alignment. Here's an alignment article I wrote years ago for traditional golf but it holds equally true for Symple Swing. http://www.golfhelp.com/golf-tips/Golf_Alignment.html I use the club across the chest mentioned in the article with almost every student.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
|
|
|
JoeShmoe
8 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 11:01:20 AM
|
| One other thing to note. I find that move much much easier when I have real flex in my knees. For someone who's quite tall (6'1), I used to stand really tall to the ball with straight legs and a lot of bend from the waist. Now I bend less from the waist and lower myself down to the ball by flexing my knees. Really gets you in a lower and more stable position. Knee caps over the toenails. Helps keep the knee flexed in the backswing, means more coil and gives you way more stablity to make that first move down |
|
|
|
cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 11:24:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JoeShmoe
quote:
I was able to swing some today for the first time in a week, and I tried the swing to right field feeling. I used the 7i, 5i, 3hybrid, and driver, five swings w/each. I felt like I used very little energy, yet my distances w/each iron were 5-10 yd more than normal and, w/the driver, 20 yd greater than usual. I was able to maintain my tilt and head over my back knee easier than ever before. The only thing is that for about 3/5 of those swings, the ball traveled on a line divergent to the target line. It wasn't a slice/fade, it was straight, just divergent. Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.
This happened to me too when I first made this change. Youre actually pushing the ball a bit. But thats good as your now in to out. What you now need to be is in to in so as you come into impact try and really whip through and collect the ball, with a slightly more agressive release. I find if I try and roll my forearms through impact [b](just after the bump to right field)[/b] I can draw the ball. Still working on this but its all coming good
Will you explain to me what you mean by "bump?" I'm still new to golfing, so I'm not sure what that means. Thanks in advance. |
|
|
|
cb44
207 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 11:27:40 AM
|
Everything said by Boris, JoeShmoe, and Joe makes sense, and all of it boils down to swinging completely on plane. I don't recall finishing w/a full turn yesterday. Also, what Joe said about my swing plane being to the right of the target as well as JoeShmoe's observation that I am swinging in to out makes me think that the swing to right field feeling is valid but it is not effective unless that swing is made w/a full turn, which align's w/Boris's thought, Joe's swing trainer analogy, and JoeShmoe's in-to-in view. I can visualize a swing to right field while in the trainer (that is aligned correctly). I'm going to try that this PM and I'll let you know how it comes out.
It's great that so many people are willing to help others on this forum, and that they can do so by stating their thoughts in a manner that any one can understand. Thanks to all of you! |
Edited by - cb44 on July 20 2006 11:44:43 AM |
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - July 20 2006 : 11:32:35 AM
|
Hi cb44,
Bumping the hips means rocking the hips forward (as in rock and lock). Normally this means rocking the hips toward the target but in this case it would mean rocking the hips toward right field. Note that when you rock the hips forward the back hip winds up considerably lower than the front hip (Your front hip is in effect tilted upward).
The tilting of the hips has the effect of tilting the spine back away from the target and helps keep the head over the back knee and behind the ball through impact.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Swing path help
Posted - July 06 2006 : 8:02:28 PM
