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KenC
12 Posts |
 Posted - March 14 2006 : 4:55:25 PM
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I just recieved the latest newletter and don't understand your use of the terminology "move the ball from the heel up as far as the big toe"(maybe not a verbatim quote).
My question comes from the fact that, as I understand it, the leading foot is "square", i.e. perpendicular to the target line. That being the case, wouldn't aligning the ball with the heel or the big toe mean placing it in the same spot?????
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six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - March 14 2006 : 9:37:17 PM
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Hi Ken,
If you read the newsletter, it says some golfers may have to move the ball as far up as the big toe. My guess is that this doesn't include ss golfers. It also says to experiment until you find the best position for you to hit the ball on the upswing. I would suggest that you try this out. A toast to better golf.
El |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 14 2006 : 9:56:56 PM
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Hi six,
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't thought about "other" golfers
Being the Simple Swing newsletter, I just assumed it was addressed to SSers.
It happened to hit a question I was going to e-mail about today. While practicing(in a Dome, since I'm in Canada), using a 460cc driver, that situation occurred. When I got home and saw the newsletter,Eureka, question answered; but, it didn't really answer my question. My solution has been to move the ball up to my big toe(lead foot is square), tee it high, and let it fly!! It seems to work, giving "down the pipe" accuracy. With a smaller headed driver, I tee it slightly inside the big toe.
Maybe Joe or some other staff person can explain exactly how it should be done for SSers. |
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mikeoleary
535 Posts |
Posted - March 15 2006 : 09:11:34 AM
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Dear Ken and 6Gold
Hope all is well and spring is coming the Canadien SS's. Thanks for 'catching' misprint - we do want ball position off 'squared' front toe.
Also it is okay to just slightly - ever so slightly open front foot on driver. Make sure hips and shoulders are square to target/target line.
If you have any questions please call me
El - hope all is well and let me know when you get out to hit balls - all that swing practice over the winter should really pay off! hope so anyway - 'smiles'
talk soon
MIke |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - March 16 2006 : 08:31:58 AM
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Hi Mike
I thought the ball position for a driver was just forward of centre of your stance, with a wider than shoulder width stance, hips forward in rock and lock, is the bottom of the arc not in line with the lead shoulder which is approximatly centre of the stance?
I'm not that broad shouldered but they are 22" wide, so does that not mean the club head is rising, which you want BUT also starting to come inside slightly for 8+" before it hits the ball? which makes me think the club head must be getting ahead of the hands and starting to close slightly ? ie with short irons club shaft leans towards the target with the ball rear of centre at set up, with the woods/long irons its less lean and ball centred, and with the driver its straight if the ball is just forward of centre so move the ball forward 4 or 5" then the shaft must lean AWAY from the target.
I've probably got this all wrong, it will be interesting to see how dense I am being.
Thanks guys |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 08:27:26 AM
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Hi Guys
Since there are no replies to my question I take it I must have been right off track, the reason I asked was I use 460cc driver and 90% of my drives are relatively straight now which is brilliant as I was an out and out slicer before, so a few now are pulled/hooked, BUT they are all daisy cutters great distance and roll just very low trajectory. Any ideas? I use the largest tees allowed.
Cheers
Als |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 09:17:18 AM
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Hi als
I was looking forward to a reply to your questions. I am, by no means qualified to answer, since my limited observations of SS are from an indoor range with ball flight of approx 140 yards. Having said that, here are my observations, so far.
Since the club face is square to the target line throughout the swing, it should continue to be square and "down the line" well past the point of impact. The occasional pulls/hooks are caused by letting the trail hand roll the club inside. I think your "daisy cutter" trajectory might be caused by having the ball too far back in the stance, even though you are using large tees. JMHO.
Hopefully, someone much more qualified than me will see fit to answer. |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 10:46:36 AM
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Hi Ken
Thanks for your reply, this is one of the things Ive never really understood about the golf swing/arc, in the backswing when I take the club back and inside then surely after impact the club should mirror the back swing and come inside as the lead shoulder is still turning inside? if the club contines down the line is that not an inside to square to outside arc in relationship to the lead arm? I'm confused, just as well we love this game!!!!!
Cheers
Als |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 11:39:15 AM
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als:
I know the club has to "come inside" the target line, at some point, in the follow-through. I guess it is a matter of "how soon". Conventional swing teachers often talk about "chasing the ball down the line". This is simply extending the arms towards the target after impact, rather than immediately bringing them inside the line.
I guess another way to visualize this would be as a (slightly) more upright swing plane. The "distance" that the clubhead is actually "on" the target line, is probably quite short(12 inches?), but, as compared to probably 2-3 inches in a conventional swing, that is quite a bit.The additional distance of "on-line clubhead travel"(did I just invent a phrase? ) would allow the clubface to remain square to the line long enough to impact the ball teed opposite the big toe. My reading of the SS followthrough seems to tell me to let the arms extend, then fold up over the shoulder.
Of course, on the other hand, I could be totally "out to lunch" , and won't be able to test it on the outdoor range/course for, at least, another month. I, too, as a lifelong slicer, am looking forward to hitting them straight with an occasional draw.
Good golfing and, please, keep me informed
Ken |
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Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 7:37:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by KenC
als:
I know the club has to "come inside" the target line, at some point, in the follow-through. I guess it is a matter of "how soon". Conventional swing teachers often talk about "chasing the ball down the line". This is simply extending the arms towards the target after impact, rather than immediately bringing them inside the line.
I guess another way to visualize this would be as a (slightly) more upright swing plane. The "distance" that the clubhead is actually "on" the target line, is probably quite short(12 inches?), but, as compared to probably 2-3 inches in a conventional swing, that is quite a bit.The additional distance of "on-line clubhead travel"(did I just invent a phrase?) would allow the clubface to remain square to the line long enough to impact the ball teed opposite the big toe. My reading of the SS followthrough seems to tell me to let the arms extend, then fold up over the shoulder.
Of course, on the other hand, I could be totally "out to lunch", and won't be able to test it on the outdoor range/course for, at least, another month. I, too, as a lifelong slicer, am looking forward to hitting them straight with an occasional draw.
Good golfing and, please, keep me informed
Ken
Hey Ken,
Maybe I can help.
There is symmetry to the golf swing for certain, but we can't make the swing symetrical. When we try to make it symmetrical, we screw everything up. Symmetry just happens.
And it happens by setting up with sound alignments. SS has very specific instructions on how to set up. Then you swing with the shoulders back and then forward. You bend the trail arm when you run out of lead arm and on the downswing you bend the lead arm when you run out of trail arm. This gives you symmetry, and you would see a nice arc if we taped a decent Symple Swinger and played it in slow motion
Don't worry about hitting the ball from the inside, chasing the ball down the line, or whatever. These thoughts are just going to screw you up. They have screwed up golfers for ages. Just hit the damn ball, no better yet just swing through it. The ball is just one point on your swing plane. One of many points. That is all it is, don't make it any more than that and this will free you up mentally.
It all begins at setup. And then a proper pivot, staying loose and in balance. And that is all you need to play decent golf using SS.
Don't mean to be overly simplistic, but that is all there really is to it.
Best of luck
Boris
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 8:23:36 PM
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Thanks Boris! I was hoping someone knowledgeable would jump in here.
If you follow this thread from it's beginning, it's not so much a "swing" question, but, a "ball position" question. The instruction books/DVD I received when I bought the SS system tell me that the ball should be positioned at the center of the stance. Any variance from that position(for the different clubs) should be NO MORE than one ball width either direction. This month's Newsletter contradicts that instruction by telling us to move the ball "up" to the big toe of the lead foot(for big headed drivers).
I have no problem with that instruction. During my winter's indoor practice/experimentation, I have found that to be the best position for me(and teed high for my 460cc driver). That position seems to yield the most accuracy and best(perceived) distance. Bringing the squared clubface "straight down the line" seems natural, if one sets up properly and swings using shoulder turn, as per instructions. I get straight shots and a fairly high launch angle with a 10* driver.
In other words, I'm a happy camper
als's problem seems to be a little different. My posts to him are my feeble attempt to explain what I perceive as happening along the clubhead path. The swing and ball positioning appear to work for me, but, I think als would appreciate a less simplistic answer to solve his problem. I will probably have more questions when I am actually able to get onto the course and put my SS to the real test(another month or so ).
Thanks again for your interest, Boris
Ken |
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Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 8:42:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by KenC
Thanks Boris! I was hoping someone knowledgeable would jump in here.
If you follow this thread from it's beginning, it's not so much a "swing" question, but, a "ball position" question. The instruction books/DVD I received when I bought the SS system tell me that the ball should be positioned at the center of the stance. Any variance from that position(for the different clubs) should be NO MORE than one ball width either direction. This month's Newsletter contradicts that instruction by telling us to move the ball "up" to the big toe of the lead foot(for big headed drivers).
I have no problem with that instruction. During my winter's indoor practice/experimentation, I have found that to be the best position for me(and teed high for my 460cc driver). That position seems to yield the most accuracy and best(perceived) distance. Bringing the squared clubface "straight down the line" seems natural, if one sets up properly and swings using shoulder turn, as per instructions. I get straight shots and a fairly high launch angle with a 10* driver.
In other words, I'm a happy camper
als's problem seems to be a little different. My posts to him are my feeble attempt to explain what I perceive as happening along the clubhead path. The swing and ball positioning appear to work for me, but, I think als would appreciate a less simplistic answer to solve his problem. I will probably have more questions when I am actually able to get onto the course and put my SS to the real test(another month or so).
Thanks again for your interest, Boris
Ken
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the postion of the ball for the big drivers. I play a 460cc Cobra and I play it just short of my lead toe with my feet shoulder width. I could not imagine trying to hit this monster with ball at mid position.
And this is nothing new, but it is critical at setup to set more toward the heel of the driver. Because at impact, your club will be off the ground and you want center impact. The alternative is to hover the sweet spot over the ball instead of grounding the club
Boris |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 21 2006 : 8:59:18 PM
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quote:
And this is nothing new, but it is critical at setup to set more toward the heel of the driver. Because at impact, your club will be off the ground and you want center impact. The alternative is to hover the sweet spot over the ball instead of grounding the club
Glad you mentioned this, Boris! In my early practice, I found I was hitting the ball toward the toe of all clubs, not just the driver! I, now, set up with the ball near the hosel of the club. I don't know if this indicates some flaw in my swing, but,it works well, so, I won't worry about it. I'll "just hit the damn ball". |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 12:35:47 AM
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Hi KenC,
Sorry for the confusion I caused about the ball position. That comment about the front foot was my traditional background creeping in. I know better than to ever mention ball position relative to foot position. That's a very imprecise way to judge ball position because it doesn't account for the variables like stance width, shoulder width and spine tilt.
The best thing to do for Symple Swinger's is to change the reference point regarding ball position. Don't think about ball position related to your feet. Think about ball position related to your front shoulder. We can judge ball position this way because our address position and impact positions are the same. (Traditional swingers or other swings can't do this.)
Variations in stance width and variation is spine tilt can change the ball position needed for a shot. For example if you look at some of the pictures of Mike in the Symple Swing manual you can easily judge the position of his front shoulder relative to the ball by looking at the lean of the shaft.
The lean of the shaft tells you where the ball is relative to your front shoulder. If the shaft is straight up (not leaning towards the target and not leaning away from the target) then the ball is directly opposite the front shoulder. In this position the ball would be struck at the bottom of the swing arc.
At impact your front shoulder is the axis of your swing arc. With the shaft straight up (again, not leaning towards the target and not leaning away from the target) the bottom of your arc would be opposite your front shoulder. That's a good position for a standard sized driver or maybe a 3 wood depending on the lie.
With fairway woods and long irons the ball should be addressed so there is a little lean forward of the shaft. That means the ball will be struck with a slightly depending blow. That's what we want with long irons and fairway woods.
With short irons there should be quite a bit of shaft lean. That means you are striking the ball with a very depending blow.
With the new big headed drivers and long tees you want to hit the ball slightly on the upswing. That means the shaft will actually be leaning back (away from the target) just a bit at address and impact.
Now realize that if someone had a really wide stance an a good bit of spine tilt that even though the shaft is leaning back just a bit it might appear to the casual observer that they were playing the ball back in their stance almost to the middle of their stance. It would appear that way because the wide stance and spine tilt (away from the target) move the position of the front shoulder back in the stance relative to the front foot.
BTW, when chipping there should be a good bit of shaft lean toward the target because your definitely want to contact your chips with a decending blow.
Even though I'm not giving your shaft lean in degrees I think you will find it very easy to find your correct ball position for any shot relative to your front shoulder with just a few minutes of experimentation.
You'll go crazy and never agree on any ball position if you try to judge ball position in relation to your feet. Judge your ball position relative to your front shoulder and you'll find a lot more success and consistency.
Judging ball position relative to your front shoulder does seem a little strange a first because it's a different way of doing things but I think you'll see the logic and precision of it very quickly. Good ball striking is all about where in the swing arc your strike the ball and the swing arc is controlled by your front shoulder.
One final note. Don't go nuts about ball position. On most shots it's not that critical. If you have a little to much shaft learn or a little less than you should the only difference your likely to notice is a difference in trajectory.
For example, I normally play my wedges back with a good bit of lean. However when I want to hit a very hight shot to go over a tree I would move the ball up so there would be very little or no lean at address. That would give me a much higher trajectory.
Having some shaft lean toward the target and having a decending blow is generally a good thing because it makes striking the ball a bit easier. For example, moving the ball up for a high wedge shot can give you a nice high shot but it also increases the possibility of a bladed wedge winding up with a skulled shot across the green.
I hope that helps.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 01:04:32 AM
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Joe, that is a very instructive answer. Thank you!
A personal note on stance width. Being short(5' 4.5") amd stocky, I tend to keep my stance about shoulder width, or a very little bit wider. I guess that is why, in addition to my "old way" training, I still tend to refer to foot position. From now on, I will remember to think "ball position in relation to lead shoulder". I have been watching the "shaft lean" as a guide.
So, equipped with a little more knowledge and another checkpoint, it's back to the Dome and "Hurry up spring"!
Gratefully,
Ken |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 04:33:19 AM
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Hi Guys
Thanks Ken, Boris and Joe, that has cleared up that uncertainty brilliantly.
As I said in a previous question I'm into SS this season fully, after messing around for a short time last year, my problem is I'm one of these people who actually finds it hard to read/watch dvd and fully understand the concept, I need hands on, but living in the UK its hard to get lessons from Joe or Mike, so that is why I need to keep asking questions (sometimes daft ones) to try and get my head around some things, so its great when you guys take up your time and try to help.
Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers
Als |
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six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 10:06:03 AM
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Ball position in relation to front shoulder, what a great idea,Joe! Now that I have read this explanation it makes perfect sense. The obvious sometimes evades us. Looking forward to spring. (Ken, where is your dome located?)
El |
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KenC
12 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 11:10:44 AM
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El
The Dome(and I) are located in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 11:18:42 AM
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Good Morning -
I've been following this topic with a great deal of interest and appreciate the many views - helps understand the concept much better.
I find that ball position near the front shoulder ( Joe's post of the 22nd ) promotes "topped" hits, in my case. I think that means my swing has passed the "bottoming out" point and is on the rise. Then I move the position back toward the center of the stance, things get better.
Obviously I'm doing something wrong here because as Joe pointed out in 3-22 posting, I should be able to hit ball with the more forward position and not experience the "topping" -
As the old farmer said, "If it's working, keep doing it. If it's not working, stop doing it".
Cheers
Rob K in Phoenix. |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 22 2006 : 11:24:07 AM
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Hi ALS,
If you (or any other Symple Swingers) want to chat about your golf swing sometime I do have a SKYPE account. In case you're not familiar with it, SKYPE's an IP phone service over the Internet where you talk over your computer at no charge. Just a thought.
Of course, as always, we're happy to answer any of your questions on the forum or by e-mail.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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joe
21 Posts |
Posted - March 29 2006 : 11:50:29 PM
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Hi everyone,
I haven't posted in a while but I have some feedback on the big driver head ball position and my results. I have a TM R5 so this applies to me. I've been teeing my ball about 1 inch inside my left foot and I place the club head about 6 to 8 inches behind ball (in line w/my left chest) and then do my rock and lock. Been hitting pretty well and averaging about 97 or 98 mph SS (have a swingspeedradar). Just for fun I tried moving the ball farther forward about an inch, then another inch, etc, etc until it started to go way off target. Well I found my sweet spot was about 1 inch beyond my left foot (after that started hooking).
Everything else is the same, club is in line w/my chest (now about a foot behind the ball)then do the rock and lock and swing away...the best news is my club head speed went way up...I was hitting 103, 105, 104 etc...and nice and straight....not sure why so far forward works for me but if I can hit over 100 mph and straight I'm not changing anything!!
Thanks for the tip!!
-Joe |
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Big Drives With a Big Driver
