| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
als
80 Posts |
 Posted - February 22 2006 : 08:13:13 AM
|
Hi Guys
Where on the imaginary clock face would you say the lead arm straightens on the downswing, by that I mean the wrist uncocks and the club and lead arm are in line?
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 5:30:08 PM
|
Hi Als,
If you were able to watch the Iron Byron, you would see that the arm and shaft are in line at the moment of impact. Since this machine is the ball sricker par-excellance, my guess would be to try to emulate it. The object here is to keep the wrists inactive, and let momentum of the swing dictate arm to shaft positioning. Remember that the iron byron wrist to arm connection is a pin, so it's not a voluntary uncorking, rather it just happens. (IMHO)
El |
 |
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - February 22 2006 : 6:31:07 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by six-gold
Hi Als,
If you were able to watch the Iron Byron, you would see that the arm and shaft are in line at the moment of impact. Since this machine is the ball sricker par-excellance, my guess would be to try to emulate it. The object here is to keep the wrists inactive, and let momentum of the swing dictate arm to shaft positioning. Remember that the iron byron wrist to arm connection is a pin, so it's not a voluntary uncorking, rather it just happens. (IMHO)
El
I agree wholeheartedly about letting momentum doing its job. I don't think about my arms straightening, but they surely do.
Here is a video that puts a slightly different light on release and where the "straightening" occurs.
http://tinyurl.com/7ptfb
I agree with this concept, but the whole thing really is just academic. If you are on plane and can stay releatively tension free, all the angles will release on their own at the proper time. This is one thing you really should not worry about. There are more important things you should focus on , like how many "rounds" you will enjoy at the 19th hole
Boris |
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 3:02:31 PM
|
Boris, I did view the video, and I can see where the left arm and club shaft were in line at the point of impact. The right arm was slightly bent, still in the proccess of straightening. Not being a physics major, I can only guess that the straightening of the right arm would apply pressure to the left side, continually increasing the speed of unloading past the point of impact.
Now I have a question. Should we be conciously aware of this. or are we then falling into the right side hitting routine?
El |
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - February 23 2006 : 4:00:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by six-gold
Boris, I did view the video, and I can see where the left arm and club shaft were in line at the point of impact. The right arm was slightly bent, still in the proccess of straightening. Not being a physics major, I can only guess that the straightening of the right arm would apply pressure to the left side, continually increasing the speed of unloading past the point of impact.
Now I have a question. Should we be conciously aware of this. or are we then falling into the right side hitting routine?
El
My recommendation is that we should not be consciously aware of this. The swing is happening too fast for us to consciously straighten out anything. We are better off trusting that it all will happen on it's own. Stay loose, swing with oblivion and just trust that the theory behind this all is sound. And then enjoy the results!
Boris |
|
|
|
als
80 Posts |
Posted - February 24 2006 : 07:14:34 AM
|
Hi Guys
Thanks for the info, not sure I understand it though, but Boris you use the single axis forums where the 6/100's position is constantly quoted, that was what I asking about, as I feel I uncock the wrist early using simple swing and feel that I am coming from outside in on the swing and I am finding it hard to follow through the ball and up, I am coming round after hitting the ball and hooking and the left wrist is getting extremely sore, any ideas????? |
|
|
|
bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - February 24 2006 : 09:34:18 AM
|
I find that ALS just described my case exactly.
i.e. Hard to follow through and up, coming round and pull-hooking. No sore wrist.
Me too, any ideas ??? |
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - February 24 2006 : 7:05:56 PM
|
Als,
Here is what you wrote....as I feel I uncock the wrist early using simple swing.......let centrifugal force do the automatic uncocking of the wrists, no assistance, no power. A number of years ago a friend had me swing a rope with a weight on the end, and I seem to remember that it was to teach me to rotate, using the lead shoulder as the sole source of power. He used the term spaghetti arms. I don't think that that is far off of what we are trying to accomplish here. You may want to give it a try. I believe that the rope was about the same lenghth as a golf club. It may be that someone else out there has tried this and can shed a little more light on it.
El |
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - February 24 2006 : 8:22:37 PM
|
Just remember
Long ago when men cursed and beat the ground
with sticks, it was called witchcraft..
Today, it's called golf
El |
|
|
|
Boris
202 Posts |
Posted - February 25 2006 : 06:16:16 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by als
Hi Guys
Thanks for the info, not sure I understand it though, but Boris you use the single axis forums where the 6/100's position is constantly quoted, that was what I asking about, as I feel I uncock the wrist early using simple swing and feel that I am coming from outside in on the swing and I am finding it hard to follow through the ball and up, I am coming round after hitting the ball and hooking and the left wrist is getting extremely sore, any ideas?????
I have no problem with the 6/100's position as a benchmark, but the problem is that it is a dynamic postion, not static. You can't try to get there, you just get there if your setup and intraswing dynamics are sound.
I cannot say with certainty about your problem, but remember with SS, you do not leverage the shaft. It is a swing, where the shaft is pulled longitudinally versus a hit, where you indeed put pressure on the side of the shaft. Pressure on the shaft with SS will tend to make the hands turn over prematurely and cause a hook.
On the downswing, think "Frozen hands". The hands do nothing but go for the ride. They will uncock, you have to do nothing. But the important thing is not to stop turning. If you do stop turning, the hands will tend to take over. The turn continues long after the ball is struck. It may feel like you will hook the ball off the planet by pivoting long after impact, you will not, as long as your swing path is correct.
The one thing about the golf swing that has really sunk in with me is that to have control, you have to give up all control. Once you are set up, don't think about the target, don't think about what can go right or wrong, think only one thought at the most. That one thought should be a key, like tension free arms, or good turn away from the ball, or no swaying , but one swing thought is the most you get. You cannot control the outcome of the golf swing, intraswing. You are "Stuck" with the outcome whether you like it or not at setup and the moment that club gets moving. I can't tell you the difference accepting this harsh reality has made in my game. And how much more fun it has become. Realizing what you can control and what you can't control is critical.
Boris
|
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 04 2006 : 1:52:43 PM
|
Hi Guys,
I'm sorry I missed this topic for so long.
Regarding your original question quote:
Where on the imaginary clock face would you say the lead arm straightens on the downswing, by that I mean the wrist uncocks and the club and lead arm are in line?
I'd recommend your front elbow (your front wrist should always be straight) should straighten just past impact. (Take a look at home run hitters and you'll see that their front arms don't straighten until after impact.) If you want to protect from hooks try swinging and keeping a little elbow bend well through impact. You will still have a very strong shot and you'll find it very difficult to hook or draw. (The bent elbow won't cause a loss of power at least we haven't been able to document much if any loss when we tested it.) Straightening at impact is okay but I believe full extension should generally occur just past impact. The exact point or straightening will vary slightly depending on the club. The driver particularly if you're trying to catch the ball on the upswing will be different from a wedge where you're trying to strike a depending blow.
During the development of Symple Swing we studied early straightening of the arms (also called casting). The bottom line is we found it didn't cause a problem with Symple Swing with power IF (and that's a big If) you are "ON-PLANE".
If you are "on-plane" the physics of the swing do change a bit if you straighten early but on "good swings" it definitely didn't cause a power problem. Now if we all had mostly perfect swings that would be fine. However the fact is that even the best of us aren't making "perfect physical movements" even most of time. If your plane is off (the biggest factor) or your other body motions are out of sequence, early straightening becomes very difficult to control. Keep the butt of the club pointing exactly at the target line during your backswing and downswing and early straightening can work but only "sometimes". BOTTOMLINE: WE DON'T RECOMMEND A DELIBERATE EARLY STRAIGHTENING OF THE LEAD ARM UNLESS YOU DON'T MIND SOME SHOTS FLYING OFF INTO THE WOODS.
Note: Unless you are a single digit golfer you should stop reading here. Reading further could seriously screw up you mind and trying anything mentioned here could seriously screw up your swing.
Now for the curve ball. Our testing actually indicated that early straightening (i.e., Casting) increased club head speed 5% or more. I won't even try to go into the physics here but I have checked it out with some smart folks and they have logical explanations as to why we see this. If I was in a long drive contest I might use a swing like this. However, I wouldn't use it in normal game of golf.
I have studied swings of pros and I believe I seen some elements of this early release power gain in the swings of some of the younger LPGA pros. You don't get a big arc in your downswing without some early straightening.
In the early release swing you feel an increased downward force on your back foot in the the beginning of the downswing as the arm begins to straighten and the force is directed downward. At this point most of the force is directed downward to your back foot. As you approach and go through impact that downward force is shifted to the front leg and almost 100% to the front foot. The feeling is something like you'd experience if you were trying to swing a bucket of water.
Using a very heavy weighted club or very heavy weighted swing trainer (don't use one with a formed grip) is the easiest way to experience this feeling.
LPG (Lever Power Golf) has some elements of this in their swing which gives it some power potential but this, in my opinion, is a factor that also makes LPG more difficult to learn. LPG and Symple Swing actually both developed from an idea I showed Jack Kuykendal years ago. He went one way with it and I went another. Power is great but I believe golf is all about "controllable power".
With Symple Swing we believe we have maximum "controllable power". Some long hitters switch to Symple Swing not to get extra distance, (these long hitter may only get the same distance they currently do) but to do get greatly increased accuracy)
Yep, we know we left a few percentage points of potential power on the drawing boards but we also know that those few percentage points of power had a very, very high toll in controlability. Even the better players we had test this had serious control problems. Their drives would alternate between "Oh, WOW!!" and "Oh, Sh#t!!!)
A couple of times a year we revisit this. If you are a single digit golfer with a very, very dependable Symple Swing I'd be interested in having a couple of folks test out the things we've found. However you should be very aware that unless you have enough experience with your base Symple Swing where you can go try new things and then quickly revert to your base swing when you need it, you should not even consider trying this experimentation. If you'd like to find out more about this drop me a line at joe@simplegolf.com.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
|
|
|
als
80 Posts |
Posted - March 05 2006 : 08:16:57 AM
|
Hi Guys
Thanks for all the replies, I think my problem (or one of them)is that I swing to fast, on the downswing I straighten my lead wrist too quickly so at impact it appears to be straight with my lead arm, but this is where the problem starts just after impact the weight of the club head seems to want to get a head of my arms causing the wrist to try and cock the other direction with a snap and that is where the pain is coming from, if I rotate the right arm over the left there is no pain( I know that I don't do that but by experimenting this stops the pain) I got symple swing last year and messed about with it with the intentions of getting really into this season, so there might be a few questions more asked as I am determined to master it. So thanks for all the help and info you guys and isn't this just a brilliant, helpfully and really interesting forum. Keep up the great work Mike and Joe.
Cheers Als |
Edited by - als on March 05 2006 08:18:17 AM |
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 05 2006 : 10:54:03 PM
|
Hi Als,
I wouldn't worry about your front wrist. About the only way your front wrist can screw your swing up is if it cups (bends towards the back of your wrist) at the top of your backswing.
On the downswing it will automatically straighten our by itself. Even if you wanted to I don't think you could change it's position at impact because centripetal force is going to straighten it our pretty much correctly no matter what you do.
After impact just let your elbows fold so your hands can come up near your front ear. This happens as your body turns to face the target.
Why don't you give me a call sometime at 203-798-8489 I'd like to find out just what's causing that pain and make sure we can stop it. If you give me a call I'd be happy to call you right back so we can chat on my nickel. (We have a flat rate phone plan.)
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
|
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - March 06 2006 : 1:46:09 PM
|
Hi Joe,
you mention centripetal force as the factor straightening the lead arm. Wouldn't it be centrifugal force. These two forces, from what I understand are opposites. I believe centripetal force is directed towards the axis, while cenrifugal force is pulling away from the axis. You've piqued my interest.
El |
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 06 2006 : 3:23:17 PM
|
Hi six-gold,
I'm told that technically there is no such thing as "centrifugal force". At least that's what some of my friends who speak in equations tell me.
See http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/phor/04-No-Centrifugal.html for more info.
Whatever you call it I was talking about the force that straightens your arm when you swing.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
|
|
|
six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - March 06 2006 : 3:42:50 PM
|
Ok Joe, I went to that site, got a headache, and decided to drop centrifugal from my vocabulary. I'm opting for momentum from here on in.
Momentum being a force that causes rotation,seems fitting.
El |
|
|
|
simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - March 06 2006 : 5:05:45 PM
|
Hi six-gold,
I agree. As much as I like words I just figure that I'll try to keep things real simple and use as few 10 dollar words as I can when describing "force".
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
|
|
|
bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - March 07 2006 : 2:52:10 PM
|
Guys -
Tech Overload !! Brain on short circuit !! Smoke, wheels grinding, oil leaking !! Not sure if it's centripetal or centrifugal !!
Good Stuff !! But my head hurts !!
Rob K in Phoenix. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
LEAD ARM
