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simpleswing
951 Posts |
 Posted - November 17 2005 : 1:19:18 PM
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We’re in the process of developing a Diagnostic Checklist for Symple Swing. Below are the diagnostic questions that we’ve come up with so far. We’re like your feedback about the checklist.
Are there any questions that should be added (or deleted)?
Are the questions clear in what they are asking?
Do you have any suggestions or comments regarding the the diagnostic checklist?
Thank you.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
Diagnostics Checklist For Symple Swing
Circle the YES for everything you can verify you are doing. You should verify it by having a helper view your swing or by video taping your swing and reviewing it.
1. At address are the hips rocked decidedly forward? YES NO
2. When the hips are rocked forward does the back knee come in under the head? YES NO
3. Is the thumb and thumb pad of your lead hand firmly against the grip with the butt of the club running up the middle of your palm towards your wrist? YES NO
4. Does the butt of the club point at the front armpit at address? YES NO
5. Does the front elbow point towards the target at address and if it bends at all during the swing does it hinge “on-plane”? YES NO
6. Does the back elbow point generally downward at address and in the beginning of the backswing.
YES NO
7. At address is there some bend in the back knee? YES NO
8. At address is most of the weight on the ball of the back foot? YES NO
9. Is the back foot flared out about 45 degrees at address? YES NO
10. Does the front leg stay straight during the swing? (Front knee should be straight or bent only slightly at address and should stay firm (doesn’t bend any more) during the swing.) YES NO
11. Is the backswing begun by turning the upper torso (shoulders) rather than the arms? YES NO
12. Does the club shaft stay “in line” with the front forearm until the shaft reaches horizontal on the backswing? YES NO
13. Does the lead arm not cross or cover over the chest in the backswing? YES NO
14. During the backswing swing does the butt of the club point at the extended target line? YES NO
15. Is your lead wrist (left wrist for a right handed golfer) flat at the top of your backswing?
YES NO
16. Is the lead arm parallel to the target line at or just before the top of the backswing? YES NO
17. In the backswing (and the downswing) does the back shoulder stay lower than (or at worse equal to) the level of the front shoulder? YES NO
18. Does the back elbow point downward in the backswing and downswing? YES NO
19. DOES THE HEAD STAY STEADY THROUGHOUT THE SWING (including well after impact into the follow through)? YES NO
20. In the follow through does the club come more “up” than “around? YES NO
21. In the follow through does the chest finish chest towards the target? YES NO
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n/a
58 Posts |
Posted - November 18 2005 : 10:45:56 AM
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Hi Joe,
I would have to say yes to most of the 20 points, I really enjoyed the lesson the other day it was great to to get your input, Joe knows my swing better then anyone, even my self.
Stuart Brandt |
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Clyde
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - November 18 2005 : 4:26:56 PM
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Hi Joe,
Great idea! This really pulls together your e-mails, forums, phone calls, and supplements the manual.
I just have 2 questions: No.13 I don't see how you can make a full turn without the left arm crossing your chest, it looks to me like Mike's arm is across his chest, page 20.
No.16 By the time my club gets to horizontal it is considerably past parallel to the target line.
Clyde |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 18 2005 : 4:46:20 PM
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Joe -
Thanks for pulling everything together in one place. I know this will be valuable.
Continued practice reveals one challenge.... When on the tee with a driver and using the SS setup....I'm getting a lot of topped drives....seemingly indicating the ball is struck on the upswing, almost too late. The most obvious answer to me is....ball too far forward in stance. Agree ? Or is there something else.
Thanks
Robert Kroon
Phoenix
18 Holes Yesterday Under
Sunny Skies and 78 Deg. Temp. |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - November 18 2005 : 5:10:54 PM
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Hi Clyde,
I'm glad you asked because both are often misunderstood.
quote:
1. I just have 2 questions: No.13 I don't see how you can make a full turn without the left arm crossing your chest, it looks to me like Mike's arm is across his chest, page 20.
What we don't want is an arm swing. We want the upper torso to turn so the sternum (middle of the chest) points almost backwards. For example, picture yourself standing on a clock with the ball at 12 o'clock. You should be turning so your sternum point well past 1:30 preferably between 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock. If you are barely getting your sternum to the 1:30 position then you should work on turning your shoulders more.
quote:
2. No.16 By the time my club gets to horizontal it is considerably past parallel to the target line.
Taking the club back "on-plane" means that as your get to about 45 degrees past parallel the butt of the club should be pointing towards the ball (or at the extended target line). If the is "considerably past parallel" then it's likely you are either bring the club back more with your arms than your shoulders or you are breaking your wrists too soon (I just went back and watched the video tape of your swing that you sent me a while back. You were parallel to the target line when the shaft was horizontal on that tape. At least at that time you were doing fine with that.)
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - November 19 2005 : 12:51:13 PM
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These are great check points. Since winter has set in here, practicing in front of a full length mirror really helps. It reveals the swing entirely. In my case, in reference to Clyde's across the chest question, I feel like my shoulder turn results in a 75, to 80 degree turn of the shoulders from the left arm, when the left arm is at full cock, and parallel to the target line. If this amount of twist in the torso is hard to do, I might suggest Rodney Yee's a.m. yoga, which loosens up all body parts. My wife and I do these stretching exercises daily, and at 70, I feel quite fit, and fairly agile.
El,
Beausejour Manitoba,
cloudy and +34f (up from -14) |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - November 19 2005 : 4:02:22 PM
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Hi bkroon,
Normally tops are cause by the head coming up in the downswing. If your head (and front shoulder) stay at the same level as it was at address than it's almost impossible to top the ball.
Try the old shadow drill. Turn your back to the sun and take some practice swings. Watch your shadow. You should see the shadow of your head stay level and not move much at all side to side either.
Watch your back knee. It may be straightening in the downswing causing the head to rise and that could be the root cause of the tops.
Keeping your head level should stop the tops right away.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 1:08:00 PM
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HI Joe -
Forgot to mention, should there be something in the check list about ball position at address ?
BK |
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mcorpuz3
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - November 21 2005 : 4:14:42 PM
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A checkpoint that Mike relayed ago has really helped me- making sure that the front shoulder stays above (or at least level) with the back shoulder during the swing.
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 3:10:43 PM
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I will add something about ball position. Maybe something like this.
quote:
Is the ball position such that at address the club shaft leans significantly forward (toward the target0 with the short irons, somewhat forward with the mid-irons, just a little forward with the long iron and fairway woods and is about vertical of just leaning slightly away from the target with the driver?
Note: Using the reference of shaft lean is actually more accurate and more consistent than ball position relative to your feet because we want to position the ball relative to the bottom of the swing arc. The bottom of the swing arc is always opposite the front shoulder (no matter where your feet are).
See #17 for about the front shoulder staying above. (that is a very, very important point)
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - November 22 2005 : 6:59:03 PM
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Well this certainly clears up ball position. It's been somewhat nebulous for me. Maybe I'll quit skying my tee shots. Just maybe my drives will out distance my three woods off the fairway. Come on spring!
El |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2005 : 5:45:54 PM
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Hello Joe -
Not sure if this is the correct forum for this but here goes.
I'm having lots of problems with so called "release" after the ball strike.
It appears to me that one of two things will/are happening. If I allow my right wrist to "roll-over" the left, I can "release" much more easily and let the shoulders continue onward to finish the follow through. Trouble is, this seems to promote a closed or "hooded" club face. Probably o.k because once the ball has been struck... ball doesn't really know what happened to club face.
If I don't allow my right wrist to "roll-over" left, ball will go much straighter but it's seems very difficult to continue on with a good follow through, also probable loss of power.
Question....how much, if any, right wrist "roll" should there be in this swing follow through and finish?
Thanks
BKroon |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2005 : 5:48:27 PM
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Sorry, should have read post more completely.
I should have said, This "release" issue is most pronounced on log irons, fairway shots and off the tee, in short, on longer, full swings.
Thanks
BK |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - November 29 2005 : 6:21:21 PM
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Hi bkroon,
"Release" is a strange term because everyone seems to have a different definition for it. It not a term I generally use in describing Symple Swing.
But in answer to your question you don't want the hands to roll over until well past impact (if at all). Rolling your wrists/hands over won't give you any additional power. This (release idea) was originally developed as a concept to close the club face at impact because everyone sliced. Well slicing isn't a problem with Symple Swing because the PowerThumb grip prevents the club face from opening up. Since Symple Swing keeps the club face square (to the swing plane) through the backswing and downswing we don't have any need for any rolling of the wrists. Rolling the wrists WILL NOT give you any more power.
Symple Swing is more like hitting what use to be called a "block" rather than "releasing" or rolling. Look at the follow throughs of Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer. They differ completely. Nicklaus rolls the wrists and Palmer does not. The Symple Swing follow through would be much more like Arnold Palmer's follow through.
I hope that answers your question.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2005 : 12:57:49 PM
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Hi Joe -
Thanks for the prompt response. Good, clear answer. I understand that the term has different definitions.
Perhaps what I should have said was more like.....follow through to the finish....after ball contact.
I don't think one can just "quit" on the swing, right after contact, although looking at Arnold Palmer swing, he certainly does not go into a "high" finish like we see today with players on the tour.
I'm not pursuing the "holy grail of power"....long past that... just want to get my tee shots in the fairway consistently....
Thanks again
bkroon |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2005 : 3:48:52 PM
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Hi bkroon,
I would summarize by saying that after impact the arms don't cross. Both elbows do fold allowing the club to come up near the head.
Year ago most everyone was taught the roll your arms to "release" stuff but if you look at the modern players you'll see many of them don't roll their arms over any more. While some tour pros still roll to release, many of your top tour pro now don't. They find the have more accuracy and more consistency when they don't roll.
Many people are still teaching the cross your arms to release philosophy. (It will work but it takes constant practice to keep the timing just right)
Note this comment and swing illustration(from another swing system)
"This means that on the follow through, you need to focus on making your forearms cross.
This will ensure that your hands have released through the ball correctly."
For Symple Swingers the above is an illustration of what not to do.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - November 30 2005 : 4:45:24 PM
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Joe -
Thanks again for a very clear picture. I'm workin' on it.
bkroon |
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Topic |
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Diagnostic Checklist
