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 1. Questions about Symple Swing.
 Posting into the front leg
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flopper


Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - February 28 2010 :  07:08:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It took me about a year to understand how to post into the leg.
Now, it wasnt for me the same as I do as what was said in the sps manual.
For me, it seems I need to internally feel the left back heel, planted down, into the downswing to keep my balance and to enter a proper impact position.

That allows me to swing into the left leg or post into it.

What I was curious about if this is similar to what others note when posting into the braced front leg.


approaching 2010 for lowering the index to 3 or less. (current 9.0)

Edited by - flopper on February 28 2010 07:17:44 AM

jclenden



USA
323 Posts

Posted - February 28 2010 :  1:52:12 PM  Show Profile Send jclenden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "feeling" that works best for me is to feel like I remain in a seated position through the downswing, which means keeping my butt back and my left knee quiet. This prevents me from using my hips and lower body to pull the club, thus forcing me to use more of my torso during the swing. At the Titleist Performance Institute they talk about how amateurs have a tendency to push the trailing hip forward into the ball. When you do that you have no choice but to come over the top, with an outside-in swing path to compensate. So focusing on the SS setup: if I setup posted, don't move the hips and knees around too much, I'll remain posted until after contact. I've had pretty good success with it.
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mikeoleary



573 Posts

Posted - February 28 2010 :  9:10:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit mikeoleary's Homepage Send mikeoleary a Private Message  Reply with Quote
great post both of you. I just gave a 3 day lesson to Mike M. from Canada and last day we got into the posting. Anyone Coming from a big weight shift or sliding with hips before contact to generate power this is a big change. But once you feel it, then get it - makes a world of difference.
Great concept JC - if head is still because of our power set stance and posting is the resisting of weight shift then you will not only have great contact at the bottom of your swing arc where the ball is but you will have a more powerful, more forceful upper torso swing as you uncoil the torso the leg drive becomes a push/post that helps the front shoulder unleash the power.
whew you can tell i just came off the lesson tee again today. lol
anyway great post as this is probably the single most error causing variable that i encounter with my students. as i tell everyone "stop the weight shift madness!".
best way to get there is to learn to t lock first, or back heel up drill or front heel up drill.. once either of these helps you or makes you quiet with hips and legs ie not weight shift or sliding then you are ready to start posting and generating max power.
remember though if you or better yet if I have a tough shot or one that needs direction or straight accuracy more than power then i t lock every time. i t lock for all short irons just to insure best possible accuracy both in aim and distance control.

look forward to talking with both of you soon
Mike O
JC - call me if you get this - need to discuss clinic possibly in your area.
Flopper - London clinic - can you get to UK? let me know
take care
MO
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simpleswing



1189 Posts

Posted - March 01 2010 :  1:26:52 PM  Show Profile Send simpleswing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My "feeling" is feeling most of the weight on the INSIDE OF MY FRONT FOOT.

If your weight feels like it's on the inside of your front foot then it easier to brace strongly into that front leg. Even when I shift my hips forward (toward the target) I still make sure I can feel the weight mostly on the inside of my front foot.

As Mike said the best way to learn that feeling is some of the drills. My absolute favorite and the one I go to first is the Back Heel Up Drill *url******************************************************simplegolf.com/blog/full-swing/back-heel-up-drill/*********************************************************

Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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SATTHMNS



170 Posts

Posted - March 02 2010 :  4:26:17 PM  Show Profile Send SATTHMNS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some very good information here about posting into the front leg. I think this is something that i have not done a very good job of quite often. When I have is when I have hit my straightest and longest shots.

That is a big goal of mine this season.
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flopper



Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - March 02 2010 :  5:28:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
as for me it seems like this would allow for a opposite force to happen where one can hold on when the swing goes all out.
this is the focal point of the posting into the leg or bracing, that the feeling or sensation one have when doing a proper imapct, basically let when know when one does it right.
I will do some indoor swings thursday, then I can try how this works for me, at least into the sensation on how I am at impact and ball trajectory.



This year, distance and accuracy from tee and approach will be worked on to reach 12+ greens a round. That will allow a drop to 3 in handicap.
280+ drives, deadly accuracy, its all a neat package, becoming a ballstriker this year.
Where is the summer?
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jclenden



USA
323 Posts

Posted - March 08 2010 :  6:47:01 PM  Show Profile Send jclenden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking about this again and was reminded of something about our anatomy. I'm not an expert on human anatomy, but the research I have done indicates that the hip bone (i.e. pelvis) cannot move on it's own. The pelvis moves in response to our legs. If you straighten the left leg, you move the left hip back. If you bend the left knee, you pull the left hip forward. Soooooo, those of us who struggle with hip rotation should consider that the rotation is caused by either: 1) the front leg is pushing away from the target line, or 2) the back leg is pushing toward the target line. Therefore, the key swing thought is NOT to keep the hips still (because we can't move our hips). The key thought is to lock the angle of the knees so that they can't move our hips toward or away from the target line until after impact. "Posting" into the front leg has the same basic effect - by pushing down into the ground with the front leg we are effectively locking the joint until after impact. But the key anatomical move is to lock the knee angle, which locks the hips, which allows us to use the torso to generate rotational momentum - and stay on plane consistently.
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flopper



Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - March 09 2010 :  05:00:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jclenden

I was thinking about this again and was reminded of something about our anatomy. I'm not an expert on human anatomy, but the research I have done indicates that the hip bone (i.e. pelvis) cannot move on it's own. The pelvis moves in response to our legs. If you straighten the left leg, you move the left hip back. If you bend the left knee, you pull the left hip forward. Soooooo, those of us who struggle with hip rotation should consider that the rotation is caused by either: 1) the front leg is pushing away from the target line, or 2) the back leg is pushing toward the target line. Therefore, the key swing thought is NOT to keep the hips still (because we can't move our hips). The key thought is to lock the angle of the knees so that they can't move our hips toward or away from the target line until after impact. "Posting" into the front leg has the same basic effect - by pushing down into the ground with the front leg we are effectively locking the joint until after impact. But the key anatomical move is to lock the knee angle, which locks the hips, which allows us to use the torso to generate rotational momentum - and stay on plane consistently.



I found a source and reference to tour pro´s where the pressure of the foot is shown, that and with looking for example at Mike when he swings, he has the left heel down into the ground, not his whole foot.
This concludes to my own experience, as I was loosing my balance and thought, hey why am I doing that?

Adjusting that was to focus on left heel down.
This change my direction to come down into the impact and now I can go all out whip and turn and never loose the balance.

All I do currently, is to whip and turn into the left heel.
I should be able to test how this is like on friday using the full swing when I am going to swing some indoors.


This year, distance and accuracy from tee and approach will be worked on to reach 12+ greens a round. That will allow a drop to 3 in handicap.
280+ drives, deadly accuracy, its all a neat package, becoming a ballstriker this year.
Where is the summer?

Edited by - flopper on March 09 2010 05:01:29 AM
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simpleswing



1189 Posts

Posted - March 09 2010 :  10:18:56 AM  Show Profile Send simpleswing a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi jclenden,
quote:


I was thinking about this again and was reminded of something about our anatomy. I'm not an expert on human anatomy, but the research I have done indicates that the hip bone (i.e. pelvis) cannot move on it's own. The pelvis moves in response to our legs. If you straighten the left leg, you move the left hip back. If you bend the left knee, you pull the left hip forward. Soooooo, those of us who struggle with hip rotation should consider that the rotation is caused by either: 1) the front leg is pushing away from the target line, or 2) the back leg is pushing toward the target line. Therefore, the key swing thought is NOT to keep the hips still (because we can't move our hips). The key thought is to lock the angle of the knees so that they can't move our hips toward or away from the target line until after impact. "Posting" into the front leg has the same basic effect - by pushing down into the ground with the front leg we are effectively locking the joint until after impact. But the key anatomical move is to lock the knee angle, which locks the hips, which allows us to use the torso to generate rotational momentum - and stay on plane consistently.


You're completely right about the problems caused by the bending and straightening the front leg and moving that front hip in. Simplifying the lower body movement was one of the main focuses of developing Simple Swing. If you bend the front leg that automatically brings the front hip in towards the ball which sets off a sequence that requires a lot of coordination and timing. That's why I keep reminding everyone about The Symple Turn – A simplied lower body motion for the golf swing. ******************************simplegolf.com/blog/full-swing/lower-body-action/the-symple-turn-a-simplied-lower-body-motion-for-the-golf-swing/ The Symple Turn was developed to combat just the problem you described.

We wanted a simple turning motion that was still very powerful yet didn't require world class timing. Keeping the front leg straight in the the Symple Turn eliminates many of the the traditional turns problems. People with normal coordination and timing can easily master the Symple Turn quite quickly.

To really simplify the swing the Symple Turn is an integral factor. The Symple Turn is a very important part of Simple Swing. So for anyone that hasn't already integrated the Symple Turn into their swing I very strongly recommend it.

Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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flopper



Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - March 10 2010 :  04:55:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if you ask me,
hip and hand turning requires a ton of practice.

I got my friend, he use the tradtional swing (TS), now, he just cant play without a ridiclous amount of practice.
he standed still for 10 years in handicap.

Already after your advice Joe, I am most likely on plane this year and then, I will rip the ball.
If it works out of the box will see, and even if it dosnt, the practice I need to put in to master the swing is so little in regards to the mechanics of the TS.

I just look at different inner aspects of the body and motion to find out the key points to replicate and just do it.
Not a fan of trying to do it new each year as I done before.

I am confident I be playing way better than I did last year even at my first rounds.


This year, distance and accuracy from tee and approach will be worked on to reach 12+ greens a round. That will allow a drop to 3 in handicap.
280+ drives, deadly accuracy, its all a neat package, becoming a ballstriker this year.
Where is the summer?
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SATTHMNS



170 Posts

Posted - March 10 2010 :  09:55:45 AM  Show Profile Send SATTHMNS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The symple turn is not something I have really worked on, or done at all. Joe has recommended to me several that I work on the symple turn. I didn't really understand the importance of the hips and the advantages of the symple turn. I know Joe told me after viewing my video that I was rotating off my front hip, which I didn't understand really. He said that the symple turn would be what I need to work on. I read about it but never tried to work on it or use it. I don't think that I really ever even got to the point of hitting into the solid posted front leg. Then another big problem for me has always been keeping my head back of my back leg. I have always tended to get my head moving forward too soon, looking up too fast also.

I have worked on this during the winter and really plan to get it right this spring and find that consistency I have been lacking.
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jclenden



USA
323 Posts

Posted - March 10 2010 :  10:06:43 PM  Show Profile Send jclenden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Less extraneous motion = greater consistency. I'm sure you'll get there if you focus on it.
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flopper



Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - March 11 2010 :  03:01:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if one asks me there is way to much theory in golf.
If one picks up a stone, and trow in on a water surface, you be able with little to no time be able to make it skip several times on it.
Now, you judge the performance on how the stone behaves, ON THE WATER.
NOT how your hip was positioned, not how your head was still, not how your leg was down or not.

Forget the lessons, forget the theory, just swing all out, look at the ball flight, and then, adjust.
Do that for 30 minutes, and you be hitting the ball better.
Add, left heel, swinging all out into the inside of the left heel, or similar position as the left leg, adjust until you find the one that works for you and then, check ballflight.
I can take basically anyone who plays golf and just make them better with such simple advice.

People belive to do the motion (golf swing) and to get the proper motion at impact one needs theory, you dont.
You need feedback.
And the proper one.

I would and checks the following,
1. what is the internal sensation I have when I swing as I want?
a)identify that, practice it.
2. Ballflight and consistency, am I able to consistently swing the same way with the same accuracy going easy or all out?
a) identify the sensation and practice.

Now, golf theory is stupid.
Its so not taking into account, how people actually learn and do things, and then adding swing thoughts??????
THERE SHOULD BE NO swing thoughts, in your swing.
That is why you pre-set all before you swing.
And that should also be fast.
Rock-lock, waggle, swing.
Watch ballflight.
Hit one more.
Check ball flight etc...

If you cant do it, dosnt matter,
Forget you cant do it, just hit another with the same determination, and watch ballflight.
And let your body take you where you needs to go swinging.
You get the proper angles in no time, doing that.

My list of things during the spring is,
1. identify sensation I want to have.(Swing)*I know the feeling already, now its about making body do it************************
2. post and/or bracing into the left heel. (Accuracy and distance) *Better, more work needs to be done************************
3. Watch ballflight. (proper feedback.)*spring practice************************
4. Adjust until I can feel the swing is done properly, with the proper ballflight conforming my feeling/sensation.*sps swing************************

In any movement, one must have a internal sensation that is checked according to the wanted and proper evidence.
That is how the body/brain learns, how to do it.
The theory or so called what we belive have little to nothing to do with it.
I can make a pro golfer add 60 yards in one lesson.
Its due that he suddenly didnt use his antagonist muscles.
No brake.
For him, he suddenly hit his irons 3 more clubs which for him, was impossible.

My instruction, add 60+ yards, 3 clubs with irons.
His 15 years using Ben Hogans five lessons, golf instructiors etc...no improvement.
I am better than Ben Hogan ever was to teach people hit it further and straighter.
And dont get me talking about Hank haney or david leadbetter,

Now, I dont know much abut the swing, even if I am learning as I go, but I know what the body does and how it learns.
That is also one other reason I choose SPS, Joe aint stupid.

If one likes my advice or not I dont care,
if one HIT and use the right hand to much,
then,
identify what sensation is what when one swings using left hand and right hand.
This must be done by "feel" and you should be able to in 5 minutes know which one is what.
Then you practice the feeling which allows you to use your left hand/arm and swing.
Check ballflight.
Check feel of impact.

Now, If I had Joe or Mike here, I be swinging much better in no time, and the lesson DVD if they taped me, would be the shortest they ever make.
I just attend to the feedback, and just do it.
I dont need why I should stand like this, or why I should do that, I just do it.
Check ballflight.

Just look at the DVD from sps, every time the lesson they look at ballflight to understand what you did.
What they dodnt do, which is understandable, is to teach to sort what is what on a more basic neurological level.
That is my field of expertize.



This year, distance and accuracy from tee and approach will be worked on to reach 12+ greens a round. That will allow a drop to 3 in handicap.
280+ drives, deadly accuracy, its all a neat package, becoming a ballstriker this year.
Where is the summer?
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jclenden



USA
323 Posts

Posted - March 11 2010 :  12:56:48 PM  Show Profile Send jclenden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rob, not sure what you are saying. Like you, I think people learn best under personal guidance with immediate feedback. That is a "learning theory". But personal guidance and feedback are not always available, so what do we do then? We can fall back on "swing theory" to guide us.

I believe that swing theory must be grounded in human anatomy and physics. Physics defines what forces it takes to move a ball from the tee in front of me to a spot 250 yards away. Physics defines how a golf club "works". Human anatomy restricts how a human can best utilize the club to move the ball from point A to point B. Therefore, "swing theory" helps us to think properly about solving the problem at hand.

But swing theory is not the same as "learning theory". People certainly learn physical movements by learning a correct "feeling", but our subjective feelings change over time. Can I really remember the exact feeling of my swing (or a dance move, or ice skating) from a year ago? two years ago? even 2 weeks ago? My "feeling" memory is NOT reliable! *:(************************ I need something more.

So it is valuable for me to know how to diagnose what I'm doing. A sound diagnosis is based on a sound swing theory (i.e. physics + human anatomy).

For example, when the ball starts straight and low and then curves left, where do I begin? For years I experimented with different swing changes and none worked. Why didn't they work? Because I didn't understand the theory behind hitting a golf ball, and so all of my experiments failed. I didn't even know where to begin.

Now that I have a better swing theory it is far easier to diagnose what I'm doing, practice the right things, and make serious improvements. I'd love to have personal coaching and a video camera for every swing but I don't, so I fall back on swing theory to help determine what could be wrong, and then what is actually wrong.

So to summarize, "swing theory" helps get my mind focused on how things should be done and why, and "learning theory" helps me to develop the skill.

As far as I can tell, SS is a "swing theory". Joe and Mike have added many drills and offer clinics to aid us in learning how to execute the theory, but by and large it is more of a "swing theory". Some teachers out there emphasize "learning theory" over "swing theory". Before SS I tried a couple of them and made only marginal improvements. With SS I've made phenomenal improvements. For me, getting the "swing theory" correct came before learning the skill. Think about it, even the drills we do (e.g. "T-lock stance") presuppose a specific swing theory. Why would you learn the golf swing using the T-lock stance if you believed that hip rotation was essential to a good swing? You wouldn't.

So in conclusion, I think that both "swing theory" and "learning theory" are essential to developing a skill like golf. Swing theory is the foundation upon which we apply our learning theory. And like you, I think that personal coaching and feedback are the best ways to learn a skill.

Edited by - jclenden on March 11 2010 1:06:16 PM
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flopper



Sweden
481 Posts

Posted - March 11 2010 :  1:40:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit flopper's Homepage Send flopper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jclenden

Rob, not sure what you are saying. Like you, I think people learn best under personal guidance with immediate feedback. That is a "learning theory". But personal guidance and feedback are not always available, so what do we do then? We can fall back on "swing theory" to guide us.

I believe that swing theory must be grounded in human anatomy and physics.
So in conclusion, I think that both "swing theory" and "learning theory" are essential to developing a skill like golf. Swing theory is the foundation upon which we apply our learning theory. And like you, I think that personal coaching and feedback are the best ways to learn a skill.




Well, feedback is the source of champions.
What people focus on, is as noted memory, it isnt about memory as that isnt reliable, and that myth called muscle memory dont exist.
You cant repeat and then remember using muscle memory, that approach dont work.
If it did, then people as they practice wrong more than right, then they should be better doing it wrong using muscle memory as the source.
I was adressing TG systems.

In every DVD for example that I have, every feedback they give the student, is based upon ballflight.
That is correct feedback instruction.

When the swing is learned, there isnt much deviation from it later on years down the road, look at fred couples, his swing looks the same today as it did 92.
That is where you want to get, when its ingrained, and automatic, and then its balls on target golf.
Now, I understand for example where and why I wasnt playing well, as My swingplane was way of.

But I digress, and rambles..

But what swing theory and they all say its phsyics btw and anatomy proper.
I couldnt ever putt any other way than symple putting, as I nail the balls exactly, I can even play pool using putting as it is accurate.
I wouldnt ever go back to any rotation swing.
And I got good timing.

I am just bored he*8D************************re waiting for summer

This year, distance and accuracy from tee and approach will be worked on to reach 12+ greens a round. That will allow a drop to 3 in handicap.
280+ drives, deadly accuracy, its all a neat package, becoming a ballstriker this year.
Where is the summer?
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Richardshode



Algeria
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RobertNep



Czech Republic
73 Posts

Posted - August 09 2017 :  10:44:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit RobertNep's Homepage  Send RobertNep an AOL message  Send RobertNep an ICQ Message  Send RobertNep a Yahoo! Message Send RobertNep a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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RobertNep



Czech Republic
73 Posts

Posted - August 21 2017 :  09:17:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit RobertNep's Homepage  Send RobertNep an AOL message  Send RobertNep an ICQ Message  Send RobertNep a Yahoo! Message Send RobertNep a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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