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simpleswing
951 Posts |
 Posted - May 06 2009 : 5:08:48 PM
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I'm experimenting with a somewhat different Symple Putting method. (It doesn't look weird or anything.) It does involve a different anchor point and a slightly different grip.
I think it might have some potential but I do need some help testing it.
If you have a Symple Putter and you're willing to try this method and report back to the forum I'd love to have your help. WARNING: IF YOU'RE NOT CURRENTLY PUTTING GREAT AND ARE VERY CONFIDENT AND COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR CURRENT SYMPLE PUTTING STROKE DON'T EVEN THINK OF TRYING THIS.
Instructions, pictures and a video clip of this experimental method can be seen here.
http://sympleputting.com/puttingtrack.html
If you try it, I'm interested in the answers to three questions:
1. Did it work better (or worse) than your current Symple Putting method?
2. What did you like about it? (If anything.)
3. What did you dislike about it? (If anything.)
You can report your answer back in this forum thread.
If you have any questions just ask.
Thank you.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2009 : 6:05:47 PM
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Hi Joe,
A couple of quick questions:
The hinge is done on the knuckle of the little finger of the top hand.
Which knuckle?
Ball placement.
Off the big toe? Middle toe?
Just tried to get a quick feel for this. And it feels good inside 6 feet. It also feels like I'm controlling the putter with my right hand.
Is this correct?
Thanks,
Kurt |
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Rusty
Australia
8 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2009 : 11:53:39 PM
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Joe
having recently bought the putter, i haven't extensively tested the Symple Putting Method (SPM). though, for me, i can add about the Putting Track Method (PTM) -
1. seems to work better for me, because...
2. with brushing more of my leg, i feel more "anchored" in my hinge point. with SPM i can sometimes feel that the putter head is "hovering" out there in isolation, eventhough the weight of the putterhead combined with minimal action required to move it, minimises this.
3. not really a dislike, but noticed that thought/caution has to be used when squaring up hips and shoulders. this can be overcome by having both feet parallel and bending the knees at the same angle.
just an observation, i noticed for me that with both methods i have a slight opening face/closing face through my stroke. i don't mind this at all, but can appreciate i should keep it at 0° the whole time, to maximise 0° at impact. i guess my arc is more of, ever so slightly "around" my pivot point, rather than "up". this around arc is minimised if i rotate more of the top hand under the grip + feeling that my trailing wrist (right) lifts up a little bit, with the backstroke, and "pushes" through a little bit after impact (while still keeping the fingers feeling "light" in that hand).
um, just to add for others, i'd still try PTM even if you weren't putting great and confident with SPM.
Joe, i'm glad you've suggested PTM.
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Edited by - Rusty on May 06 2009 11:56:53 PM |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 11:11:05 AM
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Hi Kurt,
To answer your questions:
The hinge is done on the knuckle of the little finger of the top hand. Which knuckle?
The knuckle at the base so the little finger. (But if you can hinge someplace else try it)
Ball placement.
Off the big toe? Middle toe?
Ball placement should be where ever it needs to be so the shaft is dead vertical (not leaning towards the target or leaning away from the target). When the shaft is vertical then the ball placement is in line with the the anchor point. (Exactly where the foot is can vary with length of legs, width of stance, etc.) It's preferable to have the everything in line as is taught in the video but the key is to make sure the shaft is vertical.
Just tried to get a quick feel for this. And it feels good inside 6 feet. It also feels like I'm controlling the putter with my right hand.
Is this correct?
Well, I don't know yet. That's why we're testing. Right now I think, just like with regular Symple Putting, you want to keep a very light grip with the bottom hand. Personally I use the bowstring bottom hand grip (http://sympleputter.com/bowstring-grip.html) with it to make sure I keep my bottom hand grip nice and light.
I have tried some definite "right hand powered putts" with my right hand (bottom hand) providing a significant portion of the power using this method and those putts seemed to work quite well. I suspect "right hand hitter" type putters might find this method quite workable. Obviously more testing needs to be done.
One other thing I've tried with this method is using an open stance. (Note: Now I always aim the line on my ball up with my desired target line so I always know where the target line is when I set up. If I didn't do this I'd definitely putt with a square stance.) Anyway with an open stance the track of my putter on my backstroke and forward stroke (my putter path) is less of an arc and more of a straight line. So it's a little harder to square up but it's easier to keep the club face square to the path.
Rusty - I do know what you mean about feeling "more anchored". I do consider that a benefit too.
Pretty much everybody has somewhat of an arc when Symple Putting. Mike and I think of our strokes as more straight than with an arc but there is a definite arc. As I noted above, an open stance will give you a somewhat straighter arc (or putting path) but it's at the expense of being a little harder to make sure you're lined up correctly.
Guys - thanks for your feedback.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2009 : 4:21:41 PM
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Thanks Joe, I played around with it for about an hour today and will try to offer a little input. This is the complete opposite almost of what I have grown accustomed too, as I am hinged at the waist with my butt back normally and pretty straight legged.
Also I like my index fingers down the shaft and putt my best when I control the stroke with my left hand. I can't seem to get the feel of that with this setup, it feels right handed to me with the knuckle anchor. That being said, it also feels like a powerful, shorter, maybe more up tempo stroke as I just hinged my right wrist back and through while pivoting off the knuckle anchor. I can certainly see how someone might prefer this.
1. Did it work better (or worse) than your current Symple Putting method?
Can't really say as I haven't taken it to the course. It would take a lot more practice, but it looks and feels solid to me.
2. What did you like about it? (If anything.)
The base knuckle anchor point does seem rock solid. It took me a while to find the 'spot' for my wrist, this seems relatively easy to find. And I used to putt right handed, I liked the short and sweet feel of the stroke and contact once I found the anchor and ball postions. Forward by a good ball width from where I have been playing it...for me anyway.
3. What did you dislike about it? (If anything.)
I gotta be honest here, my back doesn't like it to much. I have to squat pretty good to get my fingers on my thigh in this setup, and for me that's uncomfortable. I've found with symple putting I set up best hinged at the waist with my butt and weight back on my heels, it seems to be the most comfortable position with the most repeatable stroke for me.
That requires the whole routine and it 's pretty ingrained now, the read, ball alignment and feel for the stroke, the setup and stroke. Don't have a routine for this, so it does feel a bit awkward. But I think I will try to just drop into it quick for those short little 'gimmes' close to the hole, maybe practice it a bit for the close ones as it makes me feel much closer to the shot, like getting down into a little chip shot.
Best,
kb |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 10:47:01 AM
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Hi Kurt,
Thanks for the input.
I'm just trying to figure out what to make of this method. Yep, you do have to bend over a bit more so it's less back friendly.
When I groove the putting track stroke it really does make me feel like I can't miss short putter (up to 10 feet) because the thigh really does feel like a track and it make me feel like I have more control.
I've got a bunch more testing to do with it. Tomorrow I'm going to test a stance I find a bit more comfortable. It's closed stance with with my front leg vertical and everything "in line" on the front leg (putter, foot knee, thigh in a straight line). My right leg is in wide stance position with my right foot drawn back behind my left foot's position a couple of inches and I flare it 45 degrees. This closed stance seems to reduce any tendency to slightly pull any longer putts at least in practice. We'll see how it works in the real world.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 2:06:48 PM
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You're welcome, Joe.
I guess it's just my nature, but this is the kind of tinkering that I love. This is also the one area I haven't been messing with for a few months now as I really had to put some time in to find my comfort zone with Mike's instruction, but once found I committed to it and trust it. I've actually got sense enough to leave things alone when the ball goes in the cup.
To clarify the putting track stroke a bit, I can get into it fast...but I couldn't spend a lot of time practicing it. That's when it would start to bother me. Just an hour with it yesterday told me so. But it does intrigue me with the seeming ease of setup. I don't want to rush my normal routine, and really try to concentrate and make sure I'm ready and committed to the stroke, It's a process that I have to adhere to if I really want to try and get a number.
I have another instruction video around here called the 'drop and pop' that has nothing to do with putting. But that's what the putting track stroke feels like to me here on the carpet. I've got about a 10' range as well and seem to make a very high percentage of them. Hope to get out on some grass next week and play with it a bit. I know where to get fixed if I break something...
Best,
kb |
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SATTHMNS
121 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 5:01:05 PM
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Joe
There is no video when I pulled up the link ?
I'd like to try it I have not had all that much sucess with the other simple putting meathod. (of course I probably need to practice more
Mike |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 5:57:27 PM
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Hi SATTHMNS,
If you had trouble viewing the flash video at http://sympleputting.com/puttingtrack.html try going back there again. I added a link at the bottom to download the video as an AVI file so your computer should play it.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2009 : 6:45:13 PM
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Hi SATTHMNS,
Here's a quick video of the feel/interpretation I have for the putting track stroke and I'll try to explain what I think I'm doing. That sucking noise you hear is my sinus breaking loose. I love pollen, that means it's getting close to the good golf weather.
http://vimeo.com/4552588
Once I've got my ball placement and stance, I step into the handle and place the base knuckle on my thigh where it feels right. I can see from the alignment lines that the heel of the putter is up a bit. When I drop down/squat and reach in with my right hand (not sure if that's a good thing, that could be a separate motion) my fingers reach my thigh and the alignment lines match up. Then I'm simply relaxing and trying to put a smooth stroke on it with my right hand by just using my wrist. Quick and dirty.
After looking at this video though I can see maybe more movement on the right side than you would want with not quite the hinge I thought I was making. I really don't know, need Joe's input on what he sees here. My arms and elbows do feel close to my sides, but I'm trying not to be tense anywhere. I really like the feel of that knuckle/anchor point, it just doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Joe talks about being open, but I think I feel better squared up with my feet fairly close together.
I'm just winging it here, but it feels pretty good...except for my lousy back. If this was on the course I would need to read, spot align and ball align, commit to it, move in and go. It sure feels to me like it would work well. If you don't feel good with the left hand/pendulum stroke, something like this might be the ticket as it's all right hand power feel for me.
Hope this helps,
kb |
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SATTHMNS
121 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 09:20:49 AM
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kp
thanks for posting the video it was very helpful , but I am still confused as to what the differnce is between the original Simple Putting and this version ? |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 10:11:28 AM
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Hi SATTHMNS,
Two basic differences.
1. Hinge point is not the wrist, it's the knuckle of the little finger of the top hand. Some people have difficulty hinging with the wrist so this is an alternate hinging method.
2. You bend the front leg so it's parallel to the shaft of the putter allowing the backs of the fingers of both hands to slide along the top of the thigh, like a putter track, during the beginning and through impact of the stroke.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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rofox
12 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 11:50:32 PM
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Hi Joe,
I just saw this post from 05/06, I haven't been on for a few days.
What you describe is exactly what I have been using for about 4 months now.. It is great to me.. very consistent and accurate..
the key for me is the left hand pinky finger to rotate around.
I have even curled it to where more of the finger tip is touching and I feel it gives a lot better clearance.. I do keep my elbows in against my body, I set the ball directly in the middle of my right foot then put the putter head to about 1/8 inch behind the ball..
Tick/tock, even length swing.. right hand just barely brushing leg.
.. Didn't realize I was doing it wrong, grin, just kidding, I knew it was a little different.. but I love the feel of it.. I have had no feeling of stress in my back or legs from sitting up as you describe.
.. Like Joe says,, give it a try..It works for me.
Ron rofox
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rofox
12 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 11:54:06 PM
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Opps,, I didn't read my post carefully enough..
Correction...Correction..
The ball position is even with the LEFT FOOT, not
the right foot.. Sorry..
Ron rofox
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 2:58:11 PM
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Made it out for 9 holes in the evening yesterday and gave the Putting Track Method (PTM) a spin on grass for the first time. I was becoming encouraged by my progress indoors and couldn't wait to get out. Also wanted to test the new grip from Karakal and it felt great, no loss feel from the Scuti.
Think PTM went pretty well all in all. Finished with 17 putts including one 3 putt and 2 one putts. Hit 5 fairways and only two greens, wound up with a 44. Warm enough for cutoffs with vest on, and a bit on the windy side. Beautiful out and a decent bogey round for this guy.
Still really haven't mastered a routine, and found myself going through a check list at times. But I have found my anchor point and feel for that, and that seems to make it easy. Really seemed to stay on line. My speed could have been a better, but wasn't to far off. Just flat missed a couple of reads. This could have been 15 putts for sure.
Think we're pretty much on the same page, Ron. I found a link with some wrist positions that will hopefully kind of help to demonstrate PTM, and Joe can check this for accuracy. I think this is right, but need a professional opinion.
You have to use some imagination here as you would be addressing the putter, not extending it away from yourself. This would be the left/lead hand position. It may be slightly supinated (palm up) with the base knuckle of the little finger pressed into the thigh. Then bend the knees until the shaft is parallel to the thigh and the fingers start brushing.
Wrist cocked down (left wrist)
Think the right hand is maybe in a bit more of a neutral positon, controlling the stroke as it pivots on the base knuckle. Lightly brushing with most of the pressure on the base knuckle. Both hands hinge a bit (dorsiflexion) through the stroke. Just feel like you're gripping a baseball bat and putting with it.
I liked what I saw and felt out there. My concern was speed, and it didn't seem to far off. Also liked how well it stayed on line. Will try to continue and practice as much as I can, hopefully we'll get out next week for another try. It looks good, Joe.
Here's the link with the glossary of wrist movements:
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htm
Best,
kb
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 4:23:01 PM
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Hi Kurt,
Try the top hand grip more in the palm with the thumb and thumb pad contacting the grip. That should make the shaft of the club run more up the center of the palm towards the wrist rather than across the corner of the palm as shown in the picture.
I find getting the putter more in the palm with the thumb and thumb pad touching the grip gives me increase stability.
Notice how the butt of the club almost runs up my wrist and my whole thumb (thumb and thumb pad) is touching the grip of the putter.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:46:06 PM
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Hi rofox,
Very good on your method. There is no one way to Symple Putt that works perfectly for everyone.
Some folks have trouble wrist hinging. So the little finger hinging can work for them. You were diligent enough to figure things out for yourself but not everyone is able to do that.
I'm experimenting with various methods to help give people options (not too many hopefully). When I find something that works for a bunch of people then I write it up and send it out as a e-mail.
One user just sent me this little tip/trick. He's right handed and he has moved the position of his right thumb to the back of the putter shaft. However, here's the different part, he has only the left side (of his right thumb) touching the shaft. So in effect he's pushing with the side of his thumb.
This "side of thumb" grip seems to keep the putter much straighter through impact. If he turns his thumb normally (so the pad opposite his fingernail) is pushing then he tends to pull his putts. However with his side of thumb grip he can give the putts a good bit of power with his right thumb and the putter stays square through impact. It's a little strange but I've tried it and it seems to work. However, I'm still in the process of testing this.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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rofox
12 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 12:29:44 AM
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That is different on the thumb Joe,, I will have to try that one.
A couple of other points on the method you have.
1. I use a single overlap grip.
2. The reason that I don't feel stress in the legs or back is,
I have an 8/9" wide stance but I let my knees come together
and touch each other. I feel like I have a lot better support
and much more stable this way.It works for me.
Anyone that tries number 2. let me know how it does for you.
Ron rofox |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 10:23:20 AM
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Hi rofox,
We'll all a little different as far as comfort in stances goes. We're built differently so we have different needs in taking a stance. The key factor for the stance is stability. You need a stable stance where you can comfortably anchor your hands on your front leg. There are a number of ways to successfully do that.
For example, some folks see to like to stack most of their weight on their front leg. Then they take a stance about 12 inches +/- wide and they pull their back leg back (away from the target line) 6 to 12 inches. This would be called a "closed stance". Their front leg is vertical with a high proportion of their weight on the front leg. Their back foot is mainly a brace for stability.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf |
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six-gold
127 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2009 : 12:45:59 PM
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For example, some folks see to like to stack most of their weight on their front leg. Then they take a stance about 12 inches +/- wide and they pull their back leg back (away from the target line) 6 to 12 inches. This would be called a "closed stance". Their front leg is vertical with a high proportion of their weight on the front leg. Their back foot is mainly a brace for stability.
That's me.
El |
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SATTHMNS
121 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 10:04:47 AM
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I tried it last night for the first time. I had just played 9 holes Putting with my old traditional way, and not all that good. So while waiting in line for the second 9 I was on the prsctice green and gave it a try. I couldn't believe it I was making almost evey Putt inside 10' and getting my long Putts very close. So I did Putt that during my next 9, the only problem was we got rained out after a couple of holes. So i didn't get much of a chance to use it. I am excited now to practice and get use this new method.
I do like it much better than the standard simple Putting meathod. It seems to be more stable and more accurate to me. |
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Need Help Testing Experimental Putting method
