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als
80 Posts |
 Posted - April 24 2009 : 05:21:32 AM
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Hi guys
Just started to read the booklets and watch all the videos again and I have a few questions to start with.
1. Shoulder width stance… does your height come into this? My shoulders are 19” wide but I am only 5’ 8” tall so the stance seems very wide.
2. Page 12 of the book…”When the front elbow is rotated to be on plane it is no longer in a straight line with the club and the lower arm” Why and in what way is it not?
3. At address is the right elbow lower than the left and does it stay close to the right hip right from the start of the takeaway and when does the right wrist bend back again the picture on page 12 appears to be different from what is said to do.
Thanks for your time guys and this will be just the start of these questions as I really want to get it right this year after falling away from SS for a couple of years because of lack of progression (my own fault)
Now on to page 13
Cheers
Als
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Edited by - als on April 24 2009 06:45:59 AM |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
 Posted - April 24 2009 : 05:55:57 AM
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For me as I understands this,
1. I am 5´5" and I have a pretty wide stance.
For me the idea would be to make sure the arc is the same in each shot.
The club hit the same spot on the ground.
2. if you rotate the elbow, it turns and I would then say its not in a straight line to the club and arm but straight to the swing plane.
3. The right wrist is the bad guy if its become to active as you would likely hook the shots as the right hand might take over.
I been working on, get the right backswing position, then make sure left wrist is straight with a really "light" grip, and then end the swing where I want the shot to go. This has helped me to become more of a baseball swinger as the head stays back, and I can swing away matching the feeling of a powerful shot.
Your questions indicate a detailed analysis which isnt needed as the swing becomes to complicated IMO to perform. I would suggest going a little more bigger chunks to the motion involved, as in baseball.
My swing flaws I noticed the first range session, move forward with body, flat swing plane which was due to moving the body and head up.
So, back to the basics, and I redone everything the last 2 weeks according to what is stated in the dvd´s.
Swinging at home, match what I would like to feel when swinging and how it holds up I will see tomorow.
My .2c
/rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Using the new improved mental game with a year under the belt practice |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 08:00:43 AM
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Thanks flopper
When I turn my elbow it is still a straight line, do you bend your elbow out slightly towards the target?
I really want to get deeply involved this time and master the swing, last time it was more experimenting so I'm after as much info as possible.
What do you mean by "I been working on, get the right backswing position, then make sure left wrist is straight with a really "light" grip, and then end the swing where I want the shot to go"
As I'm in Scotland I have never played baseball to any extent just messing about with the kids in the park so don't really know to much about that swing.
Cheers
Als |
Edited by - als on April 24 2009 2:49:45 PM |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 09:11:55 AM
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Hi yes, I "turn" the left elbow as this is doable and possible without changing the grip towards the target line.
Hold on a door knob and then you can notice you can turn the elbow easy without affecting grip.
Just this,
get the proper backswing set up position as shown on the "own your swing dvd" its also shown in other dvd´s.
As the left wrist is to be straight from set up and in backswing and then towards the impact as this allows the clubface to be on plane the whole time.
If you CUP the left wrist in the backswing, you be getting inconsistency in the impact zone and more or less ruin the idea of the thumb grip.
Take grip, make sure left wrist is flat at set up, move into backswing position, is the left wrist still flat?
If so, its all good.
From the backswing position and into the downswing, there is what is called a force shift or bracing into the front leg, the same as baseball hitters do. Here is an image of that.
To get that position as that guy did isnt needed as it is way down and deep, however, the same position will happen just more upright, look at Mike when he swings, this is done the same way a baseball hitter moves his body and position.
This allows the head back but also, to swing at the ball really all out as the lower body stays silent.
So, what I feel, is that I am able to stay behind the ball and over the right knee as I swing around towards the target line as in where I want the ball to end up.
For me this is more of a 45degree angle towards the impact zone than more upright 90degree as in a conventional golfswing.
As my body then has to move towards the left side in the downswing due to the amount of speed I trow it become more of a holding into the left side as a baseball hitter does which for me creates the feel/sensation where it feels as I can swing all out with control.
I would assume here that it would be doable and possible to accelerate and have more swing power as the body is shifting into the left side but the whole body is taking up the force much better than is done in conventional golf with left hip and knee.
Here is the baseball hitter.
Lot of power even from a wide stance.
Note: his left wrist is "flat"
This is a golf swing sequence, conventional, look at image 6,
To get in that positionen, the Conventional golfer has to move the whole body to the left side and rotate at the same time, to square the clubface.
and this is where the baseball hitter has the whole body posting into the front left leg.
To get acuracy and power, the way we feel and sense what is going on, is to follow Mike and Joe´s advice,
My checklist currently is this,
1. check left wrist flat, (hit a few shots focus on that.) make sure wrist stays flat.
2. Check grip tension, really loose, no tension in arms. (almost it feels to drop the club)
3. Check backswing position, chest, hands in the proper postion.
Then I go trough one at the time, working with just one detail, not all at once.
I go 70% power, and when I am happy, with each detail, I just hit normal shots and check ball flight.
4. I also check the shots go into the targetline.
I had a much better season last year, however, I also didnt do the SPS properly.
I was short, and simply had to many flaws.
One thing where one live in sweden and far from a coach 
So, I decided to work it out one detail at the time.
/rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Using the new improved mental game with a year under the belt practice |
Edited by - flopper on April 24 2009 09:14:03 AM |
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flendog
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 09:46:30 AM
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I have the post on turning, thanks jclenden for your answer. ALS in regards to your question as to the right elbow. I think this is what got me into trouble. By trying to make a wider turn i was pulling and lifting my right elbow up and back and this was pulling me out of position, I think. With out a ball, after i screwed up my practice and was just going through the backswing, i found that my correct slot was best if I just turned and did not think. The right elbow IS further away from the hip than it feels, at least in my case.
I play with my stance also. I'm 5'8" and my shoulders are24" wide, so at times Ifeel too wide and narrow my stance.
Flopper, great pictures. Before I started messing with my swing I was in the position of your first hitter, right leg bent in on follow thru, and thought that I was swinging wrong.
Symple is just that. I screwed up by reading articles regarding the single plane swing and stared messing with my swing by incorporating other techniques and conplicated it. It also doens't help that I'm like Dave Kingman and try to kill every drive. HF
HMF |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 2:59:58 PM
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Wow... great reply flopper, thanks for taking so much time in composing that reply, I really appreciate it and will take on board your comments.
Thanks flendog as well.
Als |
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flendog
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 4:59:57 PM
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Thanks als. I went to the driving range this afternoon and JUST concentrated on turning my shoulder and really whipping the club thru to impact. After my set up that's all I focused on. Not legs, hips ect. just whipping my shoulder. And I mean WHIPPING my shoulder. It was great! No slice and I was bombing the ball.Maybe that's why it's called Aymple Swing. I was complicating it. HF
HMF |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 5:05:57 PM
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Great news m8.
I am so loaded to go to the driving range tomorrow and bringing my sisters kid with me. hot dogs, coke and some ball smashing, it be great!
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Using the new improved mental game with a year under the belt practice |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - April 24 2009 : 6:33:47 PM
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Hey Flopper ...Love your post with the baseball pictures.
I'm trying to use the power grip ( lead hand thumb is at 3 o'clock on grip )
My greatest difficulty is "rolling" the wrist at or just after impact. See picture 7 of the golfer in your post. Biggest result is screaming hook to left of fairway. So I have to "weaken" thumb to about 11:00 o'clock.
I don't have a clear picture in my mind as to just what happens to the hands/wrists at and immediately after impact. To put it another way.....I don't see how one can keep the wrists from "rolling" over as you progress into the release / follow through.
If you take the follow hand ( right hand in my case ) off the club at impact....then it is easy to follow through without major movement to the left....or "rollover" Again, see picture 7 of the golfer in your post.
No doubt I'm missing something here
Rob in Sunny Phoenix Az  |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 25 2009 : 02:53:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bkroon
Hey Flopper ...Love your post with the baseball pictures.
I'm trying to use the power grip ( lead hand thumb is at 3 o'clock on grip )
My greatest difficulty is "rolling" the wrist at or just after impact. See picture 7 of the golfer in your post. Biggest result is screaming hook to left of fairway. So I have to "weaken" thumb to about 11:00 o'clock.
I don't have a clear picture in my mind as to just what happens to the hands/wrists at and immediately after impact. To put it another way.....I don't see how one can keep the wrists from "rolling" over as you progress into the release / follow through.
If you take the follow hand ( right hand in my case ) off the club at impact....then it is easy to follow through without major movement to the left....or "rollover" Again, see picture 7 of the golfer in your post.
No doubt I'm missing something here
Rob in Sunny Phoenix Az
Is the chest turning in the follow trough?
The only way the wrists would do this is when the chest would stay square to the target line.(right shoulder holding back)
Then I would guess with my limited idea here that your either have a right hand/arm to active and isnt pulling with left shoulder/trapezius. (whipping)
Both of them would indicate that the chest isnt following the path.
If I hold back my chest, the wrists rolls.
Facing the target with the chest would not break the wrist and should allow you a power 3 o klock hit.(just look at the baseball hitters, the wrist is still flat but they also turned to face the target with their chest.)
Best is to film video and post it to Mike/Joe.
my .2c
/rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Using the new improved mental game with a year under the belt practice |
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mikeoleary
535 Posts |
Posted - April 27 2009 : 8:58:41 PM
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wow flopper - great job, my consulting check is in the mail -lol - perfect explanation showing power swingers in b ball with upper torso with straight left arm powering the ball by posting into front leg producing powerful yet 'simple' swing without weight shift and club face rotation from wrist breaking.
seriously i am in awe of all you guys who see the great benefit of SPS, who enjoy talking about it and do a great job explaining fundamentals to any who ask.
thanks to each of you for participation and being big part of what we are trying to do.
look forward to meeting each of you someday soon
Mike O |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 08:23:07 AM
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Hi Flopper
How is it not possible to have a straight line from the ball to the left shoulder with the elbow turned to the target?
Cheers
Als |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 10:34:31 AM
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Als,
if you turn the elbow, its not BEND, turn/bend is different.
If your turning the elbow, then it still is straight as the elbow joints works independly from the wrists.
So, if you have the set up, then turns the elbow, the wrists are still, hands in same postion, shoulders the same, then turn the elbow.
Its much easier if you hold on to something with the hands.
Elbow is then aligned with the sightline and into the downswing so, its becomes impossible to slice.
/rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Got it how to swing Symple. Same swing with superb puttning. Low 70 scores here I come! |
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 10:47:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikeoleary
wow flopper - great job, my consulting check is in the mail -lol
Mike O
I be posting my numbers when the courses opens up, late may early june.
Hopefully I can go earlier somewhere as I feel really great about the game now.
Besides you got my adress
I am glad to assist as I understand it.
/rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Got it how to swing Symple. Same swing with superb puttning. Low 70 scores here I come! |
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bkroon
223 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 2:29:49 PM
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It seems to me I saw a reference somewhere to a CD (?) about "Own Your Swing ".....or something like that.
Can't find the reference, went to website, didn't find it in the products offered.
Can anyone point me to this reference.
Thanks
Rob in Sunny Phoenix |
Edited by - bkroon on April 28 2009 2:30:33 PM |
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kfarkle
USA
248 Posts |
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als
80 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 5:20:02 PM
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Hi Flopper
I think we are getting mixed up a little.
I asked why it said in the book
"On Page 12 of the book…”When the front elbow is rotated to be on plane it is no longer in a straight line with the club and the lower arm.... Why and in what way is it not"
and you agreed with the book
"if you rotate the elbow, it turns and I would then say its not in a straight line to the club and arm but straight to the swing plane"
So I asked you if you bent your arm to cause this?
I don't bend my arm, mine appears to be straight with the club and that is why I asked the question in case I was at fault by not being the same as the book.
I loved your answer about the chest turning and allowing the arms to stay on plane, I was like bkroon and never understood how to achieve it, after reading your reply a light went on and it became crystal clear.
Cheers
Als
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flopper
Sweden
320 Posts |
Posted - April 28 2009 : 5:38:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by als
Hi Flopper
I think we are getting mixed up a little.
I don't bend my arm, mine appears to be straight with the club and that is why I asked the question in case I was at fault by not being the same as the book.
I loved your answer about the chest turning and allowing the arms to stay on plane, I was like bkroon and never understood how to achieve it, after reading your reply a light went on and it became crystal clear.
Cheers
Als
Als, No worries, its hard to describe using words and language something that happens in motion.
Then to understand what someone means isnt always easy either, that is also why I like to check twice if we actually are speaking about the same stuff
I figure a lot of people are concern with the backswing and take away and such, when in practice its more important to understand imapct and follow trough.
If you get impact and follow trough, right and proper, then the rest must be right also.
Some get way to technical about the swing and its motions.
I like to say stuff as, swing more to the left leg, brace, pull with left shoulder/back, feel that etc...
I am teaching my sisters kid how to do SPS as he been with me a few times on the range, so this year he be most likely taking his golf to play this year so I figured I get him a good golf education first.
Clearing up stuff I previous taught him.
You seems to be doing well.
/Rob
From 11hcp to tourpro level 2009?
Got it how to swing Symple. Same swing with superb puttning. Low 70 scores here I come! |
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simpleswing
951 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2009 : 12:48:09 PM
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Hi ALS (and others),
Regarding your questions:
quote:
Just started to read the booklets and watch all the videos again and I have a few questions to start with.
1. Shoulder width stance… does your height come into this? My shoulders are 19” wide but I am only 5’ 8” tall so the stance seems very wide.
2. Page 12 of the book…”When the front elbow is rotated to be on plane it is no longer in a straight line with the club and the lower arm” Why and in what way is it not?
3. At address is the right elbow lower than the left and does it stay close to the right hip right from the start of the takeaway and when does the right wrist bend back again the picture on page 12 appears to be different from what is said to do.
Question #1 Shoulder Width Stance.
The upper body motion works in a hopefully additive way with the lower body motion. (See “The Symple Turn” http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~1192.asp for more information on the proper lower body motion.)
So how wide should your stance be? You want a stance wide enough to make “an athletic move” posting into your front leg. A too wide stance can actually cause you problems by limiting your turn and limiting your ability to hit or post into your front leg costing you distance.
A narrower stance may actually give you more accuracy and more consistency but at the cost of some distance. So you need a stance wide enough to enable an athletic move into the ball yet narrow enough to insure good consistency and accuracy.
ALS, you are right that the proper stance with can very with your physique. “Generally” the best stance will be around shoulder width but obvious there can be a variation there.
So the right answer is start with a “shoulder width” stance and make adjustments narrower or wider from there. Check your distance, as well you’re your consistency and accuracy and within a few swings your “optimal” stance width should be obvious.
Question #2 You said quote:
Page 12 of the book…”When the front elbow is rotated to be on plane it is no longer in a straight line with the club and the lower arm” Why and in what way is it not?
Well I wrote the book and right now I can not find that quote. (Maybe I clarified it in a later version). Anyway let me explain the front elbow.
The purpose of asking you to rotate the lead elbow is to insure that if or when your elbow bends that it will "hinge on plane". If during your backswing your front elbow is pointed down in the usual place that conventional golfers have it then when you bend the elbow the club you will wind up above the plane with the butt of the club pointing inside the extended target line instead of at the extended target line like it should.
The club face should be set up square at 90 degrees to the swing plane right at address. Any rotation of the elbow should not change the club face position. You can rotate the elbow independently of moving the hand or the shoulder. To see what I mean, stand in front of a counter top. Put your left hand (assuming you're right handed) flat down on the top of the counter with your fingers pointing away from you.
Now bend you elbow slightly. Next you should be able to rotate your elbow from nearly pointing at the floor to pointing straight left WITHOUT moving either your hand or your shoulder.
In effect that's what you do at address to keep your elbow hinging on plane.
Now if you are one of those few people that really don't break your elbow at all in your backswing then your actual elbow position isn't any where near as important.
Question 3. quote:
At address is the right elbow lower than the left and does it stay close to the right hip right from the start of the takeaway and when does the right wrist bend back again the picture on page 12 appears to be different from what is said to do.
The right elbow is lower than the left and it does stay close to the right side. The exact position of the right (trailing hand) wrist depends on the club used and ball position. If you keep a softness in the back arm (meaning a slight bend in the elbow) and keep the back elbow pointing down the back arm should automatically fold into the right position. If you concentrate on making the butt of the club point at the extended target line (the line from the target to the ball and extending back behind the golfer) during the correct arm positions will pretty much happen automatically. BTW, you should stick a long tee in the butt of the club as your practicing to more easily see where the butt of the club is pointing during the backswing.
For example, in order to get the butt of the club pointing at the extended target line you pretty much have to have your back elbow pointed down and near your body because if that elbow flies up away from your body the butt of the club will automatically point down inside the extended target line.
Butt of club on the backswing just starting to point at extended target line behind the ball.
At the beginning of the backswing the club head end of the shaft traces the extended target line during he backswing. Then as the club shaft passes horizontal the butt of the club starts pointing downward and the butt of the club should point at the target line, then the ball, then the extended target line (the target line extension behind the ball).
Do some Shoulder Waggles before every swing. See "Shoulder Waggle" http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~332.asp That will really help you get in the right position on your backswing.
Regarding the right wrist (trailing wrist): Normally the “triangle stays intact until the club is approaching horizontal. (See "Power Triangle" http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~305.asp ) If you keep your back arm “soft” and the back elbow down and the butt of the club pointing at the extended target line then the back wrist will automatically bend in the right way.
I hope this answers your questions. If it doesn't please feel free to ask again.
BTW, I’d like to clarify some terms. The “swing plane” is defined by three points, the target, your ball and your left shoulder joint. In my opinion, there is really no such thing as a flat swing plane or a upright swing plane or for that matter a “two plane swing”.
I believe your swing is either ON-PLANE OR IT’S NOT. Some people call a swing that is on-plane, a one-plane swing. I just refer to it as On-Plane.
SYMPLE SWING IS NOT A FLAT SWING. Symple Swing is an On-Plane swing.
A backswing that is below the swing plane is a swing with a backswing fault not a two plane swing and it’s not really a flat swing. It just a swing with an incorrect backswing that will have to be rerouted by manipulation on the downswing to get back on plane at impact.
Yes you can make a backswing that is off-plane above the swing plane but I don’t think should be called a two plane swing or an upright swing. It’s a swing with a swing fault that makes it more a complicated swing. If you are off-plane like Jim Furylk your off plane (above the plane) during your backswing and then you have to manipulate the club like crazy (that’s his big loop) in order to get back on plane through impact.
If your father is a golf professional (like Jim Furyk) and you grow up on a golf course and practice for hours each day for decades then you can master a complicated off plane backswing either above or below the swing plane. If not you should keep your swing on-plane both on the backswing and the downswing.
Bkroon - Where do those screaming hooks start out? Down the middle or toward the left? Have you read about the Symple Turn (see above) and “Pulls and Hooks” http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~91.asp Let me know and we’ll definitely stop those hooks. The first step is identifying whether it’s your upper body or lower body causing them.
flendog - Now you're on the right track. Sometimes even Symple Swing can get complicated if we start over analyzing every little thing. It's all about "swinging the club" (as opposed to hitting the ball) and keeping the club on-plane.
Joe Davidson
Simple Golf
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flendog
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2009 : 1:45:57 PM
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Thanks Joe. Maybe this image will help someone else. It equates to baseball and the lower body stance. I was placing my lower body like I would if I was getting ready to swing at a baseball, but was still frustrated,so I stood there and stepped like I would stepping into a pitch.You have to remember when you step into a pitch all the weight does not shift,it's getting the upper torso ready to swing, and very little weight is shifted on the step, the majority of weight is shifted as you swing the bat.Well I took my step and rocked my hip forward,as you say to, and my lower body was stable and ready to go!At least for me,setting up like I just stepped into a pitch with my stance seems to be the magic. It give me the correct width. Then I try to forget about every thing but turning and whipping my shoulder(left). The same width seems to work for me right down to the 9 iron.
One thing right now I have to remind myself is not to let my right elbow get pinned to my right side.Down and close is not down and against the right side, at least for me. That is a habit from the old conventional swing. HF
HMF |
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flendog
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2009 : 1:53:11 PM
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One thing I forgot and hopefully this will help someone else.Since I was over active in the lower body for years, now as I start my turn I keep saying to myself" the shoulder is the engine" This has helped my concentrate on the whip. HF
HMF |
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Some basics questions
